High Energy Ignition (HEI)

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Originally Posted by content22207

1) Trend: If lower voltage ignition jumping smaller plug gaps performed better than higher voltage ignition jumping larger plug gaps,

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STOP right there!
More facts you can not change:
1. Larger plug gaps (with or without higher voltage ignition) is not changing the coil alone!

2. If you believe that to be true then you must accept the converse:
If higher voltage ignition jumping larger plug gaps performed better than lower voltage ignition jumping smaller plug gaps DeLorean manufacturers would have went with them. They didn't.
(Remember 'your' papers prove they were aware of all this in the 1960s).

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Originally Posted by content22207

2) PRV specific: Renault itself jetisoned Bosch ignition, and the small plug gaps it can support,

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Stop right there!
Look at what you posted! :bootyshake:......:dork: The Bosch ignition CAN support the small plug gaps! :thankyou:


[Mods, would it be possible to supply a smiley with a appropriately sized anal orifice]

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Originally Posted by Ron

Look at what you posted! The Bosch ignition CAN support the small plug gaps!

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I have never denied that Bosch ignition (coil) can support small plugs gaps -- that is *ALL* it can support. What the Bosch Blue coil can not support is HEI caliber plug gaps. That is why every vehicle running a Bosch Blue coil, including DeLoreans, has small plug gaps -- that is the best they can do.

Bosch ignition is adequate. It will make gasoline explode (most of the time). It is not performance ignition, even insofar as contemporary Mustang or Camaro ignitions. If you want performance ignition in your DeLorean:
1) You need a proper high winding coil
2) You need to increase primary voltage into that coil
3) You need to widen plug gaps

Every owner I know who has actually tried this, versus merely pontificating theories alone, has been thrilled with the results. I am not aware of anyone who has tried true HEI (more than just Martin's potentially backwards wired coil alone) and gone back to the stock setup.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Originally Posted by content22207

I have never denied that Bosch ignition (coil) can support small plugs gaps -- that is *ALL* it can support.

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So how does it manage in my turbo engines at a bar of boost? The gap's the same, resistive Bougicord leads, conventional (albeit different) distributor, getting on for twice the combustion chamber pressure.

The fact is that you have no evidence that the Bosch system *can't* support a greater plug gap, have you?

...and there's no point 'cos it ain't necessary.

I have no idea why AMC felt the need to specify a larger plug gap. I can only presume a man with similar "experience" as you was in charge of specifications. You said Renault, and Renault didn't increase plug gaps.

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Originally Posted by content22207

more than just Martin's potentially backwards wired coil alone

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While nobody's infallible, Bill, I've never wired a coil up backwards on any of my 7 DeLoreans, nor any of my customer's DeLoreans. Perhaps you should try fitting capacitive ignition to yours. After all, all cars since the 1980's have used it.... (according to you)

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Originally Posted by content22207

Every owner I know who has actually tried this, versus merely pontificating theories alone, has been thrilled with the results. I am not aware of anyone who has tried true HEI (more than just Martin's potentially backwards wired coil alone) and gone back to the stock setup.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Have any of these users ever actually PROVEN that there is a performance benefit? That is, had dyno testing done? Otherwise, there is only anecdotal evidence, and that is meaningless.

Please take all arguments for stock ignition to this thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?15...9605#post19605.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Originally Posted by content22207

I have never denied that Bosch ignition (coil) can support small plugs gaps -- that is *ALL* it can support.

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:shock: STOP right there!
You fully imply that when you say one will gain performance by changing the coil (HEI) alone.
Damn Bill, if I posted every time you argued against that not being the case, the system would crash again! -- It is exactly what most of the BS arguments have been over!

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Originally Posted by content22207

If you want performance ignition in your DeLorean:
1) You need a proper high winding coil
2) You need to increase primary voltage into that coil
3) You need to widen plug gaps

Every owner I know who has actually tried this, versus merely pontificating theories alone, has been thrilled with the results. I am not aware of anyone who has tried true HEI (more than just Martin's potentially backwards wired coil alone) and gone back to the stock setup.

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Theories? What theories?

There are plenty of coils that have a winding ratio high enough to omit #2.

Owners trying 'that' is not the same as "changing the coil alone on a good running stock Delorean". Not to mention fixing what was really wrong that caused them to do 'that' in the first place.

Who would replace a new "more than adequate HEI setup" with an old, adequate set up? :umm:

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Originally Posted by opethmike

Have any of these users ever actually PROVEN that there is a performance benefit? That is, had dyno testing done? Otherwise, there is only anecdotal evidence, and that is meaningless.

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...and as I'm always careful to point out, my position is from a properly working original system. Not a dodgy in-need-of-maintenance original system replaced with something Bill would approve of which results in a leap in performance.

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Originally Posted by content22207

Please take all arguments for stock ignition to this thread:

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Why? So we leave you alone on this thread with only your soap box for company?

It was wrong of me to speak for any other owners running HEI. They are all grown intelligent men, perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. I will henceforth speak only of my own experiences.

I am running the following HEI setup on #5939:
- .25 ohms resistance on the coil supply (yields 12.5 volts into the coil when the alternator is charging)
- A Pertronix 40,000 volt coil
- Standard cap and rotor (one one my goals is to eventually bypass the 5K ohm resistor in the rotor button)
- MSD spiral wound distributor lead and plug wires
- AC Delco plugs, gapped ~.05"

This ignition setup has given me excellent speed and fuel economy performance in real world driving experience.

I am proud to say that my coil and distributor lead/plug wires were Made in USA.

Bill Robertson
#5939

So what Bill, you have went from ignoring your claim that replacing the stock coil alone will increase performance, to claiming you never said such a thing?

Isn't all of this getting old even to you? (My excuse is that I am on a mission.)

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Originally Posted by content22207

This ignition setup has given me excellent speed and fuel economy performance in real world driving experience.

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You keep saying that over and over again, but can you actually PROVE this? Seat of the pants is not proof. Saying that other people that have driven your have stated it feels faster is not proof. (By the way, I sincerely thank you for letting me drive your car, that was generous, and I appreciate that, as well as enjoyed the drive)

That's my only issue that I have whatsoever with anything you say about supposed performance improvements to these cars. I have never seen you provide concrete proof of any actual gains. Show me/us dyno numbers, drag strip times, etc if you are going to be so firm about them being true improvements.

This is how coil input voltage on my DeLorean compares to several of my other vehicles (except for the 1969 engine, which has been transplanted into a 1979 vehicle, primary wiring is stock on all):

"1969" Lincoln, 460 inch Windsor engine, Pertronix coil, Pertronix ECU, MSD spiral wires, .044 inch plug gaps:
Attachment 5060

1978 Lincoln, 400 inch Cleveland engine, Pertronix coil, Duraspark ECU, MSD spiral wires, .044" plug gaps:
Attachment 5056

1984 F-250, 300 inch Lima engine, Pertronix coil, Duraspark ECU, MSD spiral wires, .044" plug gaps:
Attachment 5057

1985 F-150, 300 inch Lima engine, stock coil, TFI ECU, MSD spiral wires, .044" plug gaps:
Attachment 5058

1988 F-150, 302 inch Windsor engine, stock coil, TFI ECU, MSD spiral wires, .044" plug gaps:
Attachment 5059

Bill Robertson
#5939

Correction: my 1979 Lincoln (1969 engine) wiring harness looks to be original to the car. Obviously there is a resistance difference on the coil supply between it and my 1978 Lincoln (other than the engine, they are sister automobiles). Don't know if the resistance wire was replaced at some point, or if this is a factory spec difference between 1978 and 1979 model years (the fact that my 1984 truck only runs 10.5 volts makes that seem unlikely).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for ignoring me twice, Bill.

Proves....?

My DeLorean is currently in hover mode:

Attachment 5062

so I didn't feel like starting it -- this is a primary ignition reading with the battery charger emulating the alternator:

Attachment 5063

(The alternator jumps it up to 12.5 volts).

As you can see, my DeLorean's ignition is very comparable to my other vehicles' ignitions. It is dramatic improvement over the anemic 6-8 volts primary of a stock ignition. This is how I accomplish it:

Attachment 5064

Remember that I am running a Pertronix coil, not a Bosch Blue coil. The Bosch Blue coil is reportedly unable to handle more than 6-8 volts for extended periods of time. Do not do this on your own car unless you have exchanged the Bosch Blue coil for a proper performance coil.

As you can probably guess by now, Pertronix is my coil of choice.

I run MSD spiral wires because they are made of real wire -- much more durable than imitation wires. You can actually solder to MSD wires (John Hervey solders his terminals). Insulation jacket is 20% thicker too. You do pay dearly for a set of MSD wires, but you only pay once. They are truly lifetime wires.

Higher primary voltage, and higher coil winding ratios, allow me to open my plug gaps up to ~.05", which of course yields easier starting, better acceleration, reduced emissions, and lower fuel consumption. I am very pleased with the results. If my car had wheels on it, it would totally spank a stock DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Why do you keep ignoring questions regarding actual proof of your claims?

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Originally Posted by opethmike

Why do you keep ignoring questions regarding actual proof of your claims?

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Why are you guys surprised by this? This is classic Bill. I think he gets his jollies by ignoring you guys the way he does.

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Originally Posted by sean

Why are you guys surprised by this? This is classic Bill. I think he gets his jollies by ignoring you guys the way he does.

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You're right Sean. I'm done with this silliness.

I wonder if anyone is willing to argue that high voltage ignition (the industry standard) is harmful or detrimental? Arguments raised thus far have not been that HEI is bad, but rather that low voltage ignition is good enough.

If no one is willing to argue that HEI (the industry standard) is bad, the question isn't "why convert to HEI?" The question is "why not convert to HEI?"

A Pertronix coil costs *LESS* than an Bosch Blue coil ($39.95 vs $69.95). It also is Made in USA (Bosch coils are Made in Brazil now). The resistor grid is already in place -- all you need do is add a jumper (less than a dollar) and move the terminals around. You can run HEI through Bosch or Bougicord wires just fine (the problem with Bosch and Bougicord wires isn't their internal resistance but their internal construction, and their thin insulation jackets).

An owner can convert to HEI for slightly more than $40. It is one of the LEAST expensive things you can do to a DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Originally Posted by content22207

The question is "why not convert to HEI?"

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The answer is, "So you don't have to listen to Ron and Martin's crap."

Surely Ron and Martin would not let their feelings towards me as an individual interfere with at least trying HEI on their own cars, just to see first hand whether they like it or not.

I tried both stock ignition and HEI in real world use (not theoretically), and found that I like HEI better.

Bill Robertson
#5939

One of the "characteristics" (to keep things civil, we won't call it an "advantage" or "disadvantage") of HEI is the ability to ignite the fuel/air mixture closer to TDC and still get complete combustion.

There is a school of thought that igniting the fuel/air mixture too soon can be counterproductive because the expanding explosion will push against the rising piston.

My engine is timed 10 degrees BTDC, not 13 degrees BTDC (a stock DeLorean timing scale is superimposed next to mine for comparison):

Attachment 5088

In conjunction with my ignition distributor, which clearly differs from a stock DeLorean unit:

Attachment 5089

HEI definitely allows me to light my mixture closer to TDC and still get complete combustion.

Yet another reason why my DeLorean is faster than a stock DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

BTW: My block itself is a pedestrian low compression PRV, same as DeLorean. Not only does its cylinder compression read ~150 PSI (despite what Martin says, you *CAN* tell a European block from a North American one with a compression test -- my Renault Z7V block reads ~170 PSI), but I run 87 octane through it with no detonation problems whatsoever.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Originally Posted by content22207

My DeLorean is currently in hover mode:

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Mine's better:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5091

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Remember that I am running a Pertronix coil, not a Bosch Blue coil. The Bosch Blue coil is reportedly unable to handle more than 6-8 volts for extended periods of time. Do not do this on your own car unless you have exchanged the Bosch Blue coil for a proper performance coil.

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You still have no clue when it comes to basic electrics! You could cheerfully zap a couple of thousand volts through the coil and it wouldn't hurt it. It's current that matters, and it's current that determines the performance of the coil!

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I run MSD spiral wires because they are made of real wire -- much more durable than imitation wires. You can actually solder to MSD wires (John Hervey solders his terminals). Insulation jacket is 20% thicker too.

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Can I just ask if your Hi Fi speakers have arrows on them? I bet you're a firm believer in directional speaker cable...

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which of course yields easier starting, better acceleration, reduced emissions, and lower fuel consumption.

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Of course it does. It also reduces tyre wear, aerodynamic drag and makes your headlights shine brighter. The unfortunate side effect is that you have to carry a huge pile of bullshit around and spout it at every opportunity...

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There is a school of thought that igniting the fuel/air mixture too soon can be counterproductive because the expanding explosion will push against the rising piston.

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REALLY?! You don't say.... :ehh:

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My engine is timed 10 degrees BTDC, not 13 degrees BTDC (a stock DeLorean timing scale is superimposed next to mine for comparison):

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That's just the advance at idle and is standard on 013 distributors. It tells you nothing about the shape of the curve, only that it starts at a slightly lower level of advance. It runs more advance only a couple of thousand RPM later, so by your own ill-conceived argument, you should be running at less than 10 degrees BTDC. Let's see how your performance goes when you try it, shall we?

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Originally Posted by stevedmc

The answer is, "So you don't have to listen to Ron and Martin's crap."

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Did you believe Carl Tilley too?

Despite having the same basic engine block, my DeLorean is notably faster than a stock DeLorean. Every single person who has driven it (As Mike Lund can attest, I loan the car out readily) comments on its performance. Overall it is a cumulative effect of:
- Carburetion, especially via a single plane intake manifold
- High Energy Ignition
- True dual exhaust
- Make believe catalytic converters (tubing passes right through them, so there is no volumetric change in velocity)

Live with it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Originally Posted by content22207

Every single person who has driven it (As Mike Lund can attest, I loan the car out readily) comments on its performance.
Bill Robertson
#5939

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Yup, that is pretty cool of you.

Was it faster than stock?

Bill Robertson
#5939

It felt quicker - but I hadn't driven my DeLorean in six months at that point, so I didn't really have a good basis of comparison. What I chiefly notice (and really dug!) was the loud, gnarly exhaust.

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Originally Posted by content22207

Despite having the same basic engine block, my DeLorean is notably faster than a stock DeLorean. Every single person who has driven it (As Mike Lund can attest, I loan the car out readily) comments on its performance.

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...and back on page 4 of this thread, I wrote:

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Originally Posted by DCUK Martin

I've actually never argued that Bill's car isn't faster than a stock DeLorean. It almost certainly is. The Alpine GTA Atmo with slightly different cams, ignition timing (advance weights) and a twin Solex carb setup but otherwise identical transmission and ignition system is a heap quicker than a DeLorean - 156hp IIRC. They didn't have the mpg or emissions figures to hit that DMC did. I'm pretty sure Bill's current setup wouldn't meet those either.

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:thankyou:

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Originally Posted by content22207

Live with it.

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Prove your ignition system made a difference. Oh! You can't. Live with that and stop posting irrelevant crap skirting around the simple fact that you can't.

If Martin were just to buy himself a silk mankini too, it would take our relationship to a whole new level....

"Carbs rock -- high five!"
"K-Jet rocks too -- high five!"
"Forced induction rocks -- high five!"
"American big blocks rock too -- high five"
"Crappy Lotus engineering rocks -- high five"
"Ford rocks too -- high five"
"I've run out of things to high five"
"Let's high five running out of things to high five"

Bill Robertson
#5939

First of all (your earlier post)- I haven taken any of your BS personal and could imagine all of us getting blasted and having a hell of a time. (Maybe one weekend here in the mountains so we won't get arrested). BUT, the evil overlord of alternative DeLorean fuel delivery SUCKS!

Back to you post above-
If that's all it takes for you to quit prefacing every other #ucking post with a turd in the pool and not offering even a "yes" or "no" TO SERIOUS QUESTIONS, I'll trade in the seafoam swim suits for mankinis (or you can have one of them) -- I'm keeping the girls. But you all have to promise not to wear them around me!!!

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Originally Posted by content22207

If Martin were just to buy himself a silk mankini too, it would take our relationship to a whole new level....

"Carbs rock -- high five!"
"K-Jet rocks too -- high five!"
"Forced induction rocks -- high five!"
"American big blocks rock too -- high five"
"Crappy Lotus engineering rocks -- high five"
"Ford rocks too -- high five"
"I've run out of things to high five"
"Let's high five running out of things to high five"

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Huh? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by DCUK Martin

Huh? :dunno:

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.

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Originally Posted by sean

Why are you guys surprised by this? This is classic Bill. I think he gets his jollies by ignoring you guys the way he does.

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I think Houston should license silver metallic DMC mankinis to Adam & Eve, then someone can start a thread in the Open Discussion Forum titled For those considering wearing their Delorean Mankini:

"The material used to simulate stainless is unforgiving. It creases, and cuts...."

Bill Robertson
#5939

Ugh, he went from not answering questions to answering every question with "Mankini". I think I liked it better before.

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Originally Posted by sean

Ugh, he went from not answering questions to answering every question with "Mankini". I think I liked it better before.

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Be thankful he hasn't incorporated the picture into a new signature.

So it's clear Bill is not going to address any questions about his claims seriously so this thread has run it's course.