3.0L MegaSquirt w/ EDIS, starts and idles... what next?

After four years, I've finally turned the key on my EFI conversion. This is based heavily on Josh's conversion (not to mention the various parts I got from him):

• 3.0L PRV from a 1989 Eagle Premier
• EDIS
• Motorcraft EE03A coil-on-plug
• Megasquirt II
• XRSE-C5B Injectors (I think that's 19 lbs/hr)
• TPS and MAP sensors installed
• LC-2 wideband O2 sensor
• Stock automatic transmission

I've been documenting this conversion with a decent amount of depth, all of which can be found here.

I'm using a tune I set up myself from the MS docs and specs I was able to find online. This is in part because I somehow didn't notice that people had posted their tunes here.

After cranking for a bit, the engine started, and stabilized in the 600-800 range for idle. To be honest, I was pretty surprised it started at all. It pretty much sat there as long as I didn't touch anything. However:

• The idle feels rough -- the entire car is rocking a bit as the engine idles. It's not clear to me what the problem is there, if a cylinder isn't firing, or what is going on. Although I get the impression that a cylinder not firing would be pretty obvious, I don't necessarily know what I"m looking for.
• The exhaust smells very rich (at least I think that smell is "rich"). The exhaust looks a bit white to me, but I'm not good at picking out exhaust colors (attempts at taking photos failed completely).
• I tried giving it some gas, and while it revved a little, it stalled soon after that. I'm not surprised by this, since the engine isn't even remotely tuned.
• When cranking, I'd hear a bang sometimes, like metal against sheet metal. I think this was the starter hitting the fly wheel as the engine tried to catch but couldn't quite do it, but still started turning faster than the starter, which caused the starter to smack into the tooth instead of meshing with it. Or something like that. I didn't hear this sound once the car was actually running, so it's probably just the starter.

The thing is, I'm not sure what exactly I should do next.

I did think to turn on logging for my second start, but I'm not really sure how to read the data so that I can make adjustments. These logs are attached along with my tune:

• Attachment 54778: Second start, includes cranking, idling and stalling
• Attachment 54779: Third start, begins when already idling, ends with stalling
• Attachment 54780

On another note, my attempt at a quiet exhaust isn't really very quiet. I used a sound meter on my phone, which isn't exactly a great test, but it showed ~72 dB with the engine off, and ~92 DB when I was standing next to the exhaust, and in the low 80s when I was about 10-15 feet behind the car. I'll have to do some more scientific tests with a calibrated meter later. Also, the car is in a garage, which is surely amplifying the sound a fair bit.


Here is a video of it running (11 seconds). It sounds rough to me, or at least it sounds more like an air compressor than a car engine, like it should be smoother-sounding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFTM...ature=youtu.be

Thanks!

-- Joe

First of all, are you sure the wires are correct on the coil pack?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Independent of this I read your blog start to finish over the last two days. I was going to send you an e-mail saying how much I've enjoyed it, I've learned a ton already about all kinds of stuff (hey, Lowes rents trucks, who knew). But since you've posted this thread I'll just wave hello and watch for updates.

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Originally Posted by dn010

First of all, are you sure the wires are correct on the coil pack?

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I'm PRETTY sure they're hooked up correctly. The garage I rent to work on this is about 25 minutes away; I might be able to get some time to pop back there this afternoon and check just to be sure, but otherwise I can go tomorrow morning and look.

I made a fairly detailed wiring diagram based off of the one Josh provided me, mostly because I needed to wire up the DB37 connector, and because I wanted to make sure that I really understood where all the wires go. I've attached it as a PDF.

Attachment 54781

I'm using wasted spark here, which I guess is what most people do...?

Thanks

I mean, the spark wires from the coil packs, are you sure they're going to the correct plug? I screwed up my coil pack / plug wiring by thinking it was A-B-C on the coil pack - it is not so.

Try to use simultaneous setting instead of alternating for fuel under engine settings. It will lower the MS but you can try it like that (they fired simultaneous on the stock engine). You can also make a some small changes there (14.5, 14, 15 in the box) to see if that gets you to idle better, for now. Did you time it while cranking to make sure you don't need timing correction? Mine was off 3 degrees so it is good to check.

I am also running EDIS with MS3X quite successfully however I am running MAF based. Do you want a picture of the spark wires to compare?

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Originally Posted by dodint

Independent of this I read your blog start to finish over the last two days. I was going to send you an e-mail saying how much I've enjoyed it, I've learned a ton already about all kinds of stuff (hey, Lowes rents trucks, who knew). But since you've posted this thread I'll just wave hello and watch for updates.

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Thanks. Just be aware that I'm basically making everything up as I go along, and haven't actually done a lot of this stuff before, so you might want to check other sources. :)

I just added another posted to the blog about the initial tune setup, creating brackets, and a few other odds and ends. I think that catches it up to today, where I finally turned the key.

-- Joe

Absolutely. I was actually going to ask you what the formal title of the Monaco motor manual was so I could keep an eye out for it and get a copy of my own to do my own reading.

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Originally Posted by dn010

I mean, the spark wires from the coil packs, are you sure they're going to the correct plug? I screwed up my coil pack / plug wiring by thinking it was A-B-C on the coil pack - it is not so.

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I see, so I might have just plugged Coil A into Harness Connector B by mistake? I'll take a look when I run down to the garage again later today.

I sent the video to a mechanic friend of mine who has helped me in the past, and he immediately suggested it was way to rich (possibly due to my comments about the smell and the white smoke), and also thought that it's misfiring, and that it might be that the plugs aren't in the right order, just like you said.

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Try to use simultaneous setting instead of alternating for fuel under engine settings. It will lower the MS but you can try it like that (they fired simultaneous on the stock engine). You can also make a some small changes there (14.5, 14, 15 in the box) to see if that gets you to idle better, for now.

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Cool. I saw something about simultaneous, although it also suggested that you need a new VE table? Easy enough to save a new tune file and try it out.

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Did you time it while cranking to make sure you don't need timing correction? Mine was off 3 degrees so it is good to check.

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I did not try to time it yet; I wasn't sure if I should do that once it was idling already or not (that and I forgot my timing gun at home). What's the best way to time a coil-on-plug? Best I could find in my searches was to pull a coil and run a jumper from the end of the coil to the plug, and clip the timing light to that.

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I am also running EDIS with MS3X quite successfully however I am running MAF based. Do you want a picture of the spark wires to compare?

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That would be great -- thanks!

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by dodint

Absolutely. I was actually going to ask you what the formal title of the Monaco motor manual was so I could keep an eye out for it and get a copy of my own to do my own reading.

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I scanned all the manuals and OCR'ed them so they could be searched. You can find them here.

-- Joe

Great, thanks. I have most of the DMC stuff already from another source but didn't see the 3.0 manuals you uploaded. One of the few parts of your site I haven't perused yet. :thumbup2:

Yes, make sure the coil wires are connected correctly, and then make sure the spark wires are correct on the pack. I have my coil turned so the harness connector as at the top making it CBA instead of ABC as every single picture you see has it (with the harness connector at the bottom!). This is what screwed me and it did run, but it sounded like it had one hell of cams in it and it was a stroker. It smoked and ran like crap but once fixed it fired to life and ran smooth.

I'm not sure about the VE table, I don't see how it would need much or if any adjustment after changing cycle but I could be wrong. I'd suggest changing it to simultaneous and seeing what it does and then worry about the table and everything else. You will want to get it to idle first and then mess around with everything else. I'll check the rest of your tune in a bit, warm up enrichment might also be another area to visit.

If you have a wasted spark compatible timing light you'll be fine. I don't even know what kind of light I have since it's like 15 years old but it still works with wasted spark. All you do is put the clamp around #1 wire and pull the trigger. If you have the setup manual for ms3, refer to page 53. You disable the fuel, set your timing to 0 degrees (Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder -> Cranking Advance), put your timing light on and with someone cranking see how far off, if at all, your timing it and then adjust it.

EDIT: Your youtube post doesn't seem to be working.

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Originally Posted by dn010

Yes, make sure the coil wires are connected correctly, and then make sure the spark wires are correct on the pack. I have my coil turned so the harness connector as at the top making it CBA instead of ABC as every single picture you see has it (with the harness connector at the bottom!). This is what screwed me and it did run, but it sounded like it had one hell of cams in it and it was a stroker. It smoked and ran like crap but once fixed it fired to life and ran smooth.

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Ah, I understand now. The Motorcraft EE03A coils only have two pins, so I don't think the wire order matters (I don't think it's polarized, anyway). Mind you, I kind of wish it was that problem, since it sounds like my car is idling as badly as you describe.

Attachment 54782

I did notice this on my blog post about installing the wiring:

Coils: I had to do a little tracing on the spark plug wire, as my handling of the harness had torn of the masking tape labeling. I also wound up updating my wiring diagram slightly to match the true color of the wires.

I looked at both my diagrams and Josh's to confirm the circuit for the coils. For example, the first pair is set up like this:

• EDIS Pin 10 -> Coil A Pin 1
• Coil A Pin 2 -> Coil B Pin 1
• Coil B Pin 2 -> 12v

According to the diagram, the pairs I'm doing are:

• Cylinders 1 and 5
• Cylinders 2 and 6
• Cylinders 3 and 4

Of course, wether or not I plugged them in correctly remains to be seen, since I haven't looked at the car yet.

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I'm not sure about the VE table, I don't see how it would need much or if any adjustment after changing cycle but I could be wrong. I'd suggest changing it to simultaneous and seeing what it does and then worry about the table and everything else. You will want to get it to idle first and then mess around with everything else. I'll check the rest of your tune in a bit, warm up enrichment might also be another area to visit.

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That guy might have switched an existing, passable tune over, and had to redo it. If you're not concerned about it, I'll just flip the switch and burn it to MS.

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If you have a wasted spark compatible timing light you'll be fine.

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I just have a simple timing light (push the button and it strobes -- no other controls). Which I can't seem to find now, so I'm wondering if I brought it to the garage ages ago and forgot about it. At worst, I'll buy another one on the way in tomorrow.

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I don't even know what kind of light I have since it's like 15 years old but it still works with wasted spark. All you do is put the clamp around #1 wire and pull the trigger.

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For some reason I thought timing lights required the high voltage of a coil to get a usable inductive signal, and wouldn't work with the lower power provided by the trigger wires from MS. I don't know why I thought that. It just never occurred to me to try.

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If you have the setup manual for ms3, refer to page 53. You disable the fuel, set your timing to 0 degrees (Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder -> Cranking Advance), put your timing light on and with someone cranking see how far off, if at all, your timing it and then adjust it.

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Thanks -- I'll try it out tomorrow after I confirm the wires are going to the correct coils/injectors.

I've been using the HTML MegaManual; I didn't realize there were PDFs. Those seem easier to read than the HTML, and has more immediately useful information (I didn't find a "start the engine and start tuning" page in the HTML, but it is a bit hard to find stuff in there). I'll look through that tonight.

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EDIT: Your youtube post doesn't seem to be working.

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Doh; set it to Private by mistake. Should be good now.

Thanks again

-- Joe

Ah, you're using EDIS & coil on plug. I didn't know this was your configuration. The EDIS setup I am using, and what I'm used to working on in Ford, just uses the EDIS brain and the EDIS coil which if I could ever get my pictures from the damn cloud, I'd post! In this case it also connects to the MS ECU but is independent in what it does. I can't really tell you much more about your configuration since I've never seen it done.

Check out here: http://www.msextra.com/manuals/

Click on the ECU you have and download the Setup PDF. You can also get the PDF of the hardware and tuner studio manuals to better understand what you're doing.

As far as switching from Simultaneous / alternating, you can do it on the fly, engine idling, and see the result. Same with the calculated fuel, just don't adjust it to the extreme (typing 51 instead of 15). You won't 'hurt' anything but you'll cause the engine to stop dead.

Finally! I had to take off my lower-lower engine cover (the aluminum panel with the paper sitting on it), you can see what I'm doing. Again, for anyone reading, my coil is BACKWARDS with the harness facing forward. The picture sucks but it's actually 4-5-6 on the paper, the 4 looks like a 1.
Attachment 54786
Attachment 54785

Finally! I had to take off my lower-lower engine cover (the aluminum panel with the paper sitting on it), you can see what I'm doing. Again, for anyone reading, my coil is BACKWARDS with the harness facing forward. The picture sucks but it's actually 4-5-6 on the paper, the 4 looks like a 1. I edited it so no one misunderstands what way it's facing.

Attachment 54786
Attachment 54788

Once you have the spark sorted out, or confirmed correct, I'll be glad to help with the fueling.

What sort readings are you seeing from your wideband's output?

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Originally Posted by dn010

Ah, you're using EDIS & coil on plug. I didn't know this was your configuration. The EDIS setup I am using, and what I'm used to working on in Ford, just uses the EDIS brain and the EDIS coil which if I could ever get my pictures from the damn cloud, I'd post! In this case it also connects to the MS ECU but is independent in what it does. I can't really tell you much more about your configuration since I've never seen it done.

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I don't actually know a lot about EDIS, just that it can control spark for me. Since I'm basing it on a known working configuration from Josh (using mostly his hardware insofar as the harness and coils), I'm assuming it worked at some point. This does strongly suggest I just plugged things in wrong. Hopefully that's it.

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Click on the ECU you have and download the Setup PDF. You can also get the PDF of the hardware and tuner studio manuals to better understand what you're doing.

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Thanks -- I've grabbed the manual so I can keep it on my phone for reference.

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As far as switching from Simultaneous / alternating, you can do it on the fly, engine idling, and see the result. Same with the calculated fuel, just don't adjust it to the extreme (typing 51 instead of 15). You won't 'hurt' anything but you'll cause the engine to stop dead.

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I did notice in the MegaManual that some things could be changed on the fly and that some things couldn't. I don't remember the specifics,, though. Some quick Googling suggests MS2 (which I have) can cause a stumble sometimes after burn, but MS3 won't have that problem.

Thanks

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by opethmike

Once you have the spark sorted out, or confirmed correct, I'll be glad to help with the fueling.

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Cool, thanks.

Something that might I realized might be helpful is a screen recording of a car starting, idling for about 20 seconds, and shutting down. By "screen recording", I mean one showing the gauges in TunerStudio. I noticed my AFR gauge was bouncing around, but I don't know if it should be pretty much rock steady or if the bounce is normal. Same with the RPM variance. It's the kind of thing someone with experience would immediately recognize as being off, but for someone whose never seen a correctly running tune it's not clear if it's normal or not.

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What sort readings are you seeing from your wideband's output?

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I'll have to check that tomorrow; I haven't even looked for that value in TunerStudio.

Thanks

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by dn010

All you do is put the clamp around #1 wire and pull the trigger. If you have the setup manual for ms3, refer to page 53. You disable the fuel, set your timing to 0 degrees (Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder -> Cranking Advance), put your timing light on and with someone cranking see how far off, if at all, your timing it and then adjust it.

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Ok, a question about this. This is in the MegaManual for EDIS:

To test the VR sensor alignment, run the EDIS in limp home mode. This can be done by disconnecting the SAW/PIP plug, or disconnecting MegaSquirt-II (or its power).

Start your engine and check that the timing is exactly 10° BTDC with a timing light on cylinder #1. If the timing isn't 10° BTDC, adjust the position of your VR sensor until the timing is as close to 10° BTDC as you can get it. Note that at very low rpms (less than 400) the EDIS with no SAW input will start at almost TDC and as rpm increases towards 400 the ignition point will approach 10° BTDC; it will be stable above that engine speed. So the engine must be running to check the timing, cranking won't work. Don't forget to reconnect the SAW/PIP plug when you are done, or you will have NO timing advance and your engine will run poorly and inefficiently.

I have not tried to align the VR sensor yet, but the implication here is that the engine must be running, not cranking, or EDIS won't work properly.

It sounds like what you're suggesting is a different kind of test than the one used for VR sensor alignment?


Also, another point of confusion, this time about EDIS-6 firing order.

According to the MegaManual link above, EDIS-6 firing order is ABC (pairs of coils), but in my wiring diagram I have it listed as BAC. I seem to have gotten BAC from Josh's wiring diagram, but I don't know where he got it from. And I found another thread that suggests it's supposed to be ACB. <sigh> I can try changing the order tomorrow and see what happens.

Thanks again

-- Joe

Both logs show MAP at atmospheric pressure (about 101kPa) while the engine is running.

I checked the coil plugs this morning, and confirmed they are plugged into the correct coils.

I also checked the MegaManual again, and realized I’d misread it. — it says the pins are ordered ABC, but fire in the order of ACB. This makes more sense with Josh’s order of BCA — it’s just rolled to the right. The crank sensor is positioned at the bottom left of the toothed gear, so I think he just shifted everything 120 degrees, including which plugs the coils are connected to.

So as best I can tell, the coils are correctly connected.

— Joe

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Originally Posted by FABombjoy

Both logs show MAP at atmospheric pressure (about 101kPa) while the engine is running.

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Well now I feel stupid — while checking the wiring on the EDIS, I found the hose from the manifold just lying in the cabin — I forgot to hook it back up to MS after I took it out of the car last time. I was going to start looking for some kind of wiring issue (apparently MS defaults to 100 kPA) until I found that.

Thanks

— Joe

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Originally Posted by jangell

Well now I feel stupid — while checking the wiring on the EDIS, I found the hose from the manifold just lying in the cabin — I forgot to hook it back up to MS after I took it out of the car last time. I was going to start looking for some kind of wiring issue (apparently MS defaults to 100 kPA) until I found that.

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It's just a healthy measurement of your local atmosphere :)

There are a few other things I noticed but I didn't want to say analyze much while on a 1-dimentional fuel table. A few other quick observations based on my B28F

-Warmup looks lean and low RPM. The combo of 40F CLT, 700-ish RPM, and AFR swinging around 14:1 will lug like mad on my engine and shake like an off-balance washer. I run closed-loop idle and I know my ECU would probably abuse ignition advance to maintain that target. I'm sure the 3.0 would be smoother but even modern cars have higher warm-up RPM targets. I target 1200 RPM at that CLT. AFR is bouncing all over and will probably change once MAP is reconnected.

-What kind of idle valve? msq shows 4/6 wire stepper. If that's the DIY valve setup I would suggest changing minimum steps to move to 2 or 3, and "always on", at least for now. Did you visually verify stepper movement using the test mode? From experience I sent a lot of pintiles flying across the room until I got the wiring straight :) If it's the stock valve then ignore this.

-REQ_FUEL doesn't seem to correspond with what was previously stated in this thread regarding your injector size (stated 19lbs, 22lbs in the equation)

The fact that it runs at all is a huge thing, tho! I'm sure with some fine-tuning it'll be right in no time.

Actually plugging in the MAP hose changed things quite dramatically. The car starts, but quickly stalls out. If I give it some gas, it revs properly, and I can use the pedal to force it to an idling speed where it will stay, but still make that air compressor like noise instead of what I consider a proper engine noise.

My attempts to start the car after that failed. It would just crank and occasionally try to catch, but never actually catch.

I was going to hook a timing light up (turns out I did leave my timing gun at the garage), but I couldn't find the push button I use to crank the engine from the engine bay, so I'll have to leave that until next time. I did find a test light that I forgot I bought -- it's just a bulb with spark plug wires on both ends. I can plug this in between the plug and the coil and hook the timing light up to that, although some Googling found a video where someone simply held the timing gun's inductive clip flat against the top of the coil to get the gun to fire. I'm half tempted to buy five more of those $6 test lights and plugging in all six at once just so I can make sure all the coils are firing, but that seems a little silly, and it's not hard to test them one at a time.

I also tried simultaneous fuel instead of alternate for the initial start, although with the MAP variable thrown in I'm not sure if that changed anything. Once it wouldn't start anymore, I tried going back to alternate fuel, but it had no effect.

Here's the most recent batch of logs:

• Attachment 54802: Simultaneous fuel, crank, run and stall out
• Attachment 54803: Simultaneous fuel, crank/run/stall, then crank/run and give it gas to keep it idling before it stalled.
• Attachment 54804: Alternate fuel; all it would do is crank, never started.
• Attachment 54805: Alternate fuel and then simultaneous fuel, only cranks but never starts.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

Any luck checking your timing?

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Originally Posted by FABombjoy

-Warmup looks lean and low RPM.

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That seems consistent with how quickly it stalled out after I hooked up the MAP sensor properly. I should also note that the strong fuel smell from the exhaust is pretty much gone now.

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The combo of 40F CLT, 700-ish RPM, and AFR swinging around 14:1 will lug like mad on my engine and shake like an off-balance washer.

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That's fits with what I was seeing, too.

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I run closed-loop idle and I know my ECU would probably abuse ignition advance to maintain that target. I'm sure the 3.0 would be smoother but even modern cars have higher warm-up RPM targets. I target 1200 RPM at that CLT. AFR is bouncing all over and will probably change once MAP is reconnected.

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Actually, once I connected the MAP I saw the AFR go pretty crazy still, up over 22 at one point before it stalled out. I'm guessing other factors are at player here.

About the higher warm-up targets, that explains my neighbor's late-model Camero, which seems to rev a bit higher than I expected on a cold start for a couple of minutes before settling down. I had wondered about that.

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-What kind of idle valve? msq shows 4/6 wire stepper. If that's the DIY valve setup I would suggest changing minimum steps to move to 2 or 3, and "always on", at least for now.

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4 wire Jeep IAC. I'll make the change for the next time I go to the garage (which unfortunately won't be for at least 2 weeks, as I'll be busy next weekend).

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Did you visually verify stepper movement using the test mode? From experience I sent a lot of pintiles flying across the room until I got the wiring straight :) If it's the stock valve then ignore this.

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I did not; I wasn't aware of a test mode. This has taken four years, and the last 1.5 years was waiting for an exhaust before finally just building one myself, and most of the electrical work was done that. Which mostly means my memory is fuzzy about exactly what I did. I do remember spending a lot of time making sure I got the pins right on the IAC, which I documented (briefly), and used a diagram as a reference for what to wire up to what. I never visually checked it, as I didn't know I could.

I'll have to remember to bring a torx driver with me next time I go, as for some reason it uses that instead of hex bolts or Philips screws.

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-REQ_FUEL doesn't seem to correspond with what was previously stated in this thread regarding your injector size (stated 19lbs, 22lbs in the equation)

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Ah, sorry, it seems I pulled that information from the part of my site from when I was looking at doing a 2.8 EFI conversion, before I found a hole in my engine block and switched to a 3.0L swap. I used 22lbs because that's what I found when I googled for the Ford FOTE-9F593-D9B injectors that I'm actually using. 22lbs is (I believe) correct.

On an unrelated note, I notice that my oil gauge in the DMC is pegged to straight up, beyond the end of the marks. I'll have to look into that at some point. I'm using the one-wire sender that came with the 3.0L engine.

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The fact that it runs at all is a huge thing, tho! I'm sure with some fine-tuning it'll be right in no time.

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I was pretty surprised it ran at all. :) Although now I have to figure out why it doesn't again, but your suggestions should help. Thanks!

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by jangell

Ah, sorry, it seems I pulled that information from the part of my site from when I was looking at doing a 2.8 EFI conversion, before I found a hole in my engine block and switched to a 3.0L swap. I used 22lbs because that's what I found when I googled for the Ford FOTE-9F593-D9B injectors that I'm actually using. 22lbs is (I believe) correct.
-- Joe

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This is where it gets interesting - be careful here. Are these the pink tops? What is the Bosch number on the injector? You have to figure out how much fuel these will inject. You're saying they're 22lbs. BUT. 22lbs at what Pressure / BAR? Then, you need to figure out what pressure your installed fuel pressure regulator maintains. If they're 22lbs at 4 bar or 5 bar etc, and your regulator is at 3 bar, then you will no longer have 22lbs anymore, it will be LESS. The easiest thing for me was to get a graduated cylinder to get my injector parameters. I say easy - it was a pain in the ass, but it gave me the numbers I needed without guesswork.

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Originally Posted by dn010

Any luck checking your timing?

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Unfortunately, no. I found my timing gun, but I couldn't find the button setup I used to run the crank from the engine compartment. I'm going to throw together another one, but it'll be probably two weeks before I can get back to the garage.

I did find a spark test light that I bought years ago and forgot about, which is just a short run of wire with a light in the middle and spark plug wires on either end. I can clip the gun right to that, or apparently just lay the clamp on top of the coil to fire the gun, but clipping it on gives me another free hand.

I also finally understand what our cross-talk about clipping on the wires. You're using a coil pack (I think), so multiple coils with spark plug wires running to the plugs that you can clip the gun to. I'm using coil-on-plug, so the only wires I have are just the ones from MS to the coils, and there's no spark plug wire to the plug. Now it makes sense.


I'm curious about how testing the timing (in the MS3 docs page 53 that you pointed out earlier) and the EDIS VR sensor alignment (which requires the car to be running) relate to each other. I'm guessing that testing the timing would tell me if the VR sensor is out of alignment, since EDIS should be doing all the timing work based on the VR sensor input, right? But doing it as per the MS3 docs let me fix the VR alignment without having to actually have the car running. Does that sound right?

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by jangell

I'm curious about how testing the timing (in the MS3 docs page 53 that you pointed out earlier) and the EDIS VR sensor alignment (which requires the car to be running) relate to each other.

-- Joe

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EDIS needs to know where the crankshaft / Top Dead Center is in order to work. You can't weld on a trigger ring to the pulley anywhere you feel like it and put a sensor on the engine anywhere you want. The ring needs to be arranged so that the missing tooth is 6 teeth away from the sensor when the crank is at TDC. [https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...rank-trigger/]

But since we are DIY, this arrangement may not be perfect and we may have installed the ring and sensor a few degrees off. This is why you need to check the timing and see what it is. You can change the timing offset in MS, but you can't change anything inside the EDIS box, it is expecting the missing tooth angle to be correct.

You've stated already you're not very familiar with EDIS. You'd really benefit from looking up MS & EDIS information so you know what is going when your engine is running - makes it easier to diagnose and tune, etc.

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Originally Posted by dn010

This is where it gets interesting - be careful here. Are these the pink tops? What is the Bosch number on the injector?

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Pink tops. I happen to have one injector at home. The numbers on them are FTOE-9F593-D9B on one side, and 280 150 561 on the other, which Google tells me is the Bosch part number.

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You have to figure out how much fuel these will inject. You're saying they're 22lbs. BUT. 22lbs at what Pressure / BAR?

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Some Googling find a forum post (not exactly a definitive source, I admit) that says, "These are rated 22 lb/h by Bosch, when tested at the industry standard at 43.5 psi (3 bar) differential pressure. However when run at 40 psi they will deliver 21.10 lb/h." The various charts I found otherwise didn't list the PSI/bar for these injectors.

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Then, you need to figure out what pressure your installed fuel pressure regulator maintains.

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It's the stock regulator from the 3.0L engine. I have a pressure gauge inline with the fuel system, so I can check it once the car is running. My records show that I was getting 39 PSI. I did notice it reading 20 PSI when the car was off today, though, after I had cranked it, so I'm going to have to look at that again net time I'm down there and see if something is wrong.

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If they're 22lbs at 4 bar or 5 bar etc, and your regulator is at 3 bar, then you will no longer have 22lbs anymore, it will be LESS. The easiest thing for me was to get a graduated cylinder to get my injector parameters. I say easy - it was a pain in the ass, but it gave me the numbers I needed without guesswork.

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Give the the information I have, it seem like I should consider these to be 21 lb/hr injectors. At least I think that's right. It does mean my values are indeed off.

How did you use the graduated cylinder to test the injectors? I'm guessing you collected the fuel from the injector in one, but I'm just not clear what the process was.

Thanks again

-- Joe

This is where the cylinder comes in handy as you can set the injector up to spray with the fuel pump running and know exactly what the output is. You can then set your injector voltage table. I’m sure others didn’t have a problem in that area but I did, and maybe it’s because I am running MAF based, but my car did not like the data I gave it until I tested the injectors. I am using pink top Bosch 440s.


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Originally Posted by dn010

EDIS needs to know where the crankshaft / Top Dead Center is in order to work. You can't weld on a trigger ring to the pulley anywhere you feel like it and put a sensor on the engine anywhere you want. The ring needs to be arranged so that the missing tooth is 6 teeth away from the sensor when the crank is at TDC. [https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...rank-trigger/]

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Right, I've been over those docs quite a bit in the last two days, and the EDIS docs in the online MegalManual.

The VR sensor, missing tooth gear, main pulley and VR sensor bracket are all things I bought from Josh, which saved me the trouble of actually getting everything mounted and aligned myself. I'm trusting that his work is good, since he had it on a running engine before he upgrade to his LS1. While I was aware of the specific requirements for how the gear was attached to the pulley and the placement of the VR sensor, I didn't think about them too much because I already had Josh's hardware. But I do know I need to get the VR sensor aligned properly so the EDIS has a signal that correctly aligns with TDC, as described here.

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But since we are DIY, this arrangement may not be perfect and we may have installed the ring and sensor a few degrees off. This is why you need to check the timing and see what it is. You can change the timing offset in MS, but you can't change anything inside the EDIS box, it is expecting the missing tooth angle to be correct.

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It also occurs to me that that Josh may have used a timing offset that I'm not aware of to compensate for the mounting position, in addition to what I think is a 120 degree offset and a BAC firing order to allow for an alternate mounting position for the VR sensor.

Speaking of which, this is the best picture I have of my VR sensor placement (again, from Josh's known working setup). I can't get a better picture than that now that the muffler is installed.

Attachment 54806

The reason for my confusion is that the EDIS docs in the online MegaManual (from my post yesterday) suggest that I need to do VR sensor adjustment on a running engine, and that this is how I would fix the timing associated with EDIS. I think what you and the MS3 docs are suggesting is an alternate way to compensate for VR sensor misalignment through TunerStudio in software, by testing the timing on a cranking engine instead of requiring a running one.

At least I think these both accomplish the same task, right? I just want to understand what I'm doing. :)

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You've stated already you're not very familiar with EDIS. You'd really benefit from looking up MS & EDIS information so you know what is going when your engine is running - makes it easier to diagnose and tune, etc.

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Agreed.

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by jangell

Actually, once I connected the MAP I saw the AFR go pretty crazy still, up over 22 at one point before it stalled out. I'm guessing other factors are at player here.

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That's to be expected. Doing that shifted you out of the WOT section and into something leaner.

It looks like you just need more fuel. Once you've double-checked that timing is good I would richen the whole VE table until it runs and gets up to temp. Once hot, get your VE table sane and tune warmup enrichment the next day. While hot you can quickly test your IAC valve by tweaking the warm # of steps and ensuring RPM reliably follows suit. Or use the IAC testmode and visually check to see it move.

I wouldn't spend much time worrying about injector characterization at this stage. You can tweak those values, tune dead times by using the changing squirts trick, or maybe find a table online. I spent a fair amount of money having my 30lb injectors characterized but the voltage curve isn't much different from default and I still ended up tweaking the base dead time anyway. Knowing your precise fuel pressure and exact injector flow rate is less important than getting it to run with reasonably AFR readings and monitoring injector duty cycle to ensure you aren't close. Just watch your instruments and listen.

When I first finished my turbo 2.8 I just got it running on a big 'ole fatty-fat fuel table, tore around the countryside for 30 minutes leaning it out, and promptly drove 600 miles while lightly abusing autotune. Once it's started and runs to temp I highly recommend just diving in :D

Im a little late to the party.

Since the package got lost in the mail, i had to substitute in larger injectors. I made the original tune with 19# injectors, the ones you have a 22#. Some changes will need to be made.

It was not clear to me if the firing order issue was rectified. I know I had a hard time with this. I do not recall what i settled on to confirm your findings. I do know it was different than any information given the Mega manual. You may be onto something with my crank trigger positioning.

There is a lot of adjustment in the VR sensor bracket, no need to correct it on the software side (I do not think this is even possible as the VR sensor is fully interpreted by the EDIS module). To confirm the alignment of the sensor you must do two things:
-Unplug the edis unit from the MS and start the engine. It should run, and you should find it is giving a solid 10deg with your timing light. This is its error state when it cannot communicate with the computer.
-Position the crank sensor as close to the trigger wheel as possible. Pull the fuel pump relay and power to the coil and turn over the engine with your DMM probes across the terminals of the crank sensor. You will be looking for an AC voltage of around 3-4V. Anything less suggest the sensor is too far away and will be getting a weak signal.

While you can change offset in TS with EDIS, here is a little more in depth reason as to why it's not proper-

The EDIS module will only change timing if it receives an order from the MS unit to do so. I stated earlier that my timing was off by 3 degrees. I could change the offset in TS to show 3 degree offset and my timing would be solid where I need it to be. BUT, if the EDIS module ever loses that signal with the MS unit, the module will default to 10 degrees timing, expecting my VR sensor is in the correct position. Meanwhile, my engine would be running at 7 degrees because it's no longer getting that offset message from MS.

So, you really need to make sure you have that base timing correct with the MS unplugged. Then you can see if you need to adjust your sensor and get where you need to be. THEN when it is timed properly while unplugged, plug it back in and command the MS unit to run at a fixed timing, confirm the timing is correct with your light and you know your MS is telling the EDIS the proper timing and without MS it will be 10 degrees.

Also, have you tried hugging the MS ECU? It may be lonely, and in need of reassurance.

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Originally Posted by FABombjoy

That's to be expected. Doing that shifted you out of the WOT section and into something leaner.

It looks like you just need more fuel. Once you've double-checked that timing is good I would richen the whole VE table until it runs and gets up to temp. Once hot, get your VE table sane and tune warmup enrichment the next day. While hot you can quickly test your IAC valve by tweaking the warm # of steps and ensuring RPM reliably follows suit. Or use the IAC testmode and visually check to see it move.

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Ok, cool. I might pop the IAC off and visually check it, since that'll be easy enough to do. I set up that VE table a a couple of years ago now, so I'll have to re-read the docs and make sure I richen it correctly. I'm guessing "sane" is "the car idles at 775 RPM properly"?

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I wouldn't spend much time worrying about injector characterization at this stage. You can tweak those values, tune dead times by using the changing squirts trick, or maybe find a table online. I spent a fair amount of money having my 30lb injectors characterized but the voltage curve isn't much different from default and I still ended up tweaking the base dead time anyway. Knowing your precise fuel pressure and exact injector flow rate is less important than getting it to run with reasonably AFR readings and monitoring injector duty cycle to ensure you aren't close. Just watch your instruments and listen.

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Good to know. I'll still adjust for 21 lb/hr, since that fits with what I found online and the actual fuel pressure I'm seeing, and it's a simple enough change. I mostly want it "good enough". I mean, I have an automatic; I'm not going to be going to races in this thing, and I'd probably tweak for fuel economy over power anyway (although I realize that having everything dialed in properly will improve both).

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When I first finished my turbo 2.8 I just got it running on a big 'ole fatty-fat fuel table, tore around the countryside for 30 minutes leaning it out, and promptly drove 600 miles while lightly abusing autotune. Once it's started and runs to temp I highly recommend just diving in :D

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You may be braver than I. :) The garage I rent sits right on the sidewalk, with a 2" bump that I have to power the car over before it drops 4"+ (I have wooden ramps to help with that) before I get onto the narrow road, which is connected to two fairly busy roads just a few hundred feet away. I'm fully expecting to stall in the middle of the road and block traffic. ;). But once I'm past that, I do hope to just drive around and let auto-tune do its work.

Thanks!

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by Josh

Im a little late to the party.

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Welcome!

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Since the package got lost in the mail, i had to substitute in larger injectors. I made the original tune with 19# injectors, the ones you have a 22#. Some changes will need to be made.

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I never did get your tune (I forgot to grab it before I sent you back the extra MS unit), so that wasn't a problem; I set up my own tune as best I could. Seems it needs more work. :)

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It was not clear to me if the firing order issue was rectified. I know I had a hard time with this. I do not recall what i settled on to confirm your findings. I do know it was different than any information given the Mega manual. You may be onto something with my crank trigger positioning.

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Just to sum up my most recent theory:

Engine cranks clockwise when looking at it from the back of the car. On a V6, the sensor should be 6 teeth ahead of the VR sensor. But the firing order you have on your wiring diagram is BAC, which is 120 degrees off from the EDIS-6 ACB firing order. Which means the sensor should be located 180 degrees off (since it's 10 degrees per tooth) -- right at the bottom of the pulley. However, the sensor is located at about 240 degrees (about 7:30 on a clock).

I'm fairly sure I have something wrong there, since obviously this wo.

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There is a lot of adjustment in the VR sensor bracket

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I think at least 20 degrees worth. Which is probably a significant part of my problem -- I have the sensor currently sitting at the very end of the bracket, as I didn't realize just how much adjustment there is (now that I realize that each tooth/gap set is 10 degrees, it's pretty obvious). Simply centering it might improve things considerably, and then I can time it and tweak it from there.

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no need to correct it on the software side (I do not think this is even possible as the VR sensor is fully interpreted by the EDIS module). To confirm the alignment of the sensor you must do two things:
-Unplug the edis unit from the MS and start the engine. It should run, and you should find it is giving a solid 10deg with your timing light. This is its error state when it cannot communicate with the computer.
-Position the crank sensor as close to the trigger wheel as possible. Pull the fuel pump relay and power to the coil and turn over the engine with your DMM probes across the terminals of the crank sensor. You will be looking for an AC voltage of around 3-4V. Anything less suggest the sensor is too far away and will be getting a weak signal.

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Sounds good. I'm sure I can get the VR pretty close to the gear, but I'll definitely test it. I'll do this next time I can, which probably won't be for about 2 weeks, unfortunately.

Thanks!

-- Joe

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Originally Posted by dn010

While you can change offset in TS with EDIS, here is a little more in depth reason as to why it's not proper-

The EDIS module will only change timing if it receives an order from the MS unit to do so. I stated earlier that my timing was off by 3 degrees. I could change the offset in TS to show 3 degree offset and my timing would be solid where I need it to be. BUT, if the EDIS module ever loses that signal with the MS unit, the module will default to 10 degrees timing, expecting my VR sensor is in the correct position. Meanwhile, my engine would be running at 7 degrees because it's no longer getting that offset message from MS.

So, you really need to make sure you have that base timing correct with the MS unplugged. Then you can see if you need to adjust your sensor and get where you need to be. THEN when it is timed properly while unplugged, plug it back in and command the MS unit to run at a fixed timing, confirm the timing is correct with your light and you know your MS is telling the EDIS the proper timing and without MS it will be 10 degrees.

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Even if adjustment in TS is an option, I'd prefer to get the VR sensor as closely to calibrated as possible first. I definitely want limp-home to work if the MS signal is ever lost. This is definitely the first thing all do next, especially now that I've realized just how much adjustment Josh's bracket has.

Thanks again

-- Joe

Firing order doesn’t matter for this part. Put the crank pulley at TDC / 0 degrees and post a picture of the toothed wheel and sensor.

It doesn’t matter if the sensor is 120, 240, 90 degrees, you can mount the wheel and sensor at any degree you want, as long as the missing tooth is 6 away from the sensor when the crank is at TDC.


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