New Deloreans with over 300hp coming?

[John U]

Interesting article..
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...ll/?refer=news

[louielouie2000]

I remember folks here commenting when the law was passed earlier this year that it seemed tailor made for DMC-Texas.

So, 3.7L 360hp V6 which is currently EPA certified? The first thing that comes to mind is a Ford powerplant. Or possibly the Nissan VQ. Hmm.

[OverlandMan]

I remember folks here commenting when the law was passed earlier this year that it seemed tailor made for DMC-Texas.

So, 3.7L 360hp V6 which is currently EPA certified? The first thing that comes to mind is a Ford powerplant. Or possibly the Nissan VQ. Hmm.

So aside from the new build part, I am curious how it will affect the parts shop. I would think the tooling and creation of new parts would benefit current and prospective owners, provided the program exists for a substantial period of time. I'm just hoping they (DMCH) offset the cost of the tooling and production to the new build program and not the "legacy" owners like us.

[louielouie2000]

So aside from the new build part, I am curious how it will affect the parts shop. I would think the tooling and creation of new parts would benefit current and prospective owners, provided the program exists for a substantial period of time. I'm just hoping they (DMCH) offset the cost of the tooling and production to the new build program and not the "legacy" owners like us.

Yes, that's what interests me most about this as well: the prospect of suddenly having no longer available parts reproduced. However, the amount of NLA parts which will need to be tooled and recreated makes me wonder exactly how they're going to pull this off without going bankrupt. I'm not even talking about mechanicals, either; I'm thinking strictly cosmetic: left front fenders, torsion bars, interior b-pillar trim, knee pads, binnacles, console trim... the list goes on and on.

[Mark D]

I have mixed thoughts on this news and how it relates to the DeLorean...

On the one hand I'm hopeful that this opens the door for real growth at DMCH that will eventually lead to more high quality reproduction parts for current DeLorean owners. I hate to bring up the B word, but it's been damn near a decade the repro binnacles have been in development with only a few prototypes to show for it. Apparent failures in quality (parts warping under heat) seemingly have pushed development back several more years since prototypes were shown. I'm hoping that the prospect of truly new builds will bring some of these dwindling repro projects back on the priority list so that they may actually see the light of day.

On the other hand, I am thinking critically about the likelihood of what is presented in the article actually happening, IE 500 new DeLoreans built from existing NOS, reproduction parts, and new EPA certified engines. Those kinds of numbers don't seem impossible if the NOS parts actually exist, but as far as I'm aware there aren't 500 sets of NOS torsion bars laying around, nor 500 left front fenders, 500 binnacles, or 500 sets of wheels. To scrounge together enough NOS or good used existing parts seems like it would be possible for say, 50 cars, but somewhere above that line would require actually reproducing all of those NLA parts instead of drawing from existing stock.

I don't pretend to know the finances of DMCH, but it seems like given the current size of the company that it would be an impossible task to bring all of those missing links back into production in the 5 year time span mentioned in the article and doing so at a price that doesn't bankrupt the company. DMCH would need to go out and hires a bunch of engineers and purchasing staff to work with suppliers to reproduce all the missing parts. From a financial standpoint 500 becomes an extremely small production number when you're talking thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in tooling costs for each part. The payback period on tooling would not make sense in such low volumes. Either they're going to have to build 5000 cars to justify the investment or more likely, we'll see 50 or less cars built a similar fashion as the current remanufactured cars. IE, a donor car will be stripped, the hard to find NLA parts will be reused and everything else replaced with NOS. The only difference being that instead of reusing the existing engine or a 30 year old crate motor an EPA compliant engine will be installed and a new VIN assigned.

I am trying to think as optimistically as possible, but at the end of the day I really don't see this helping along the reproduction of any currently NLA parts any more than the current "new" build process does. From an owner standpoint I think the market may see these new cars in a similar light as current engine swapped cars, although with slightly more support due to the DMCH build.

[DMCVegas]

I remember folks here commenting when the law was passed earlier this year that it seemed tailor made for DMC-Texas.

So, 3.7L 360hp V6 which is currently EPA certified? The first thing that comes to mind is a Ford powerplant. Or possibly the Nissan VQ. Hmm.

Yep, that was me. The rep who drafted the entire bill is literally only 8 miles down the road from them.

The only thing that I know for certain about DMCH is that they're not fond of turbo charging. But they are however rather fond of supercharging. So having said that...

The Nissan VQ37VHR right out of the box hits about 350 bhp with a NISMO controller, and it has dual intakes on either side, so the symmetrical look fits rather well into the engine bay. But personally, I don't think it's the correct choice. There are super charger kits available, but they're up in the $10K range. And that's just for a kit alone. And there are other problems...

Now the Ford Duratec 3.7 engine... Right out of the box, it's 310 bhp. A rather substantial upgrade for the DMC-12 as it is. And that is naturally aspirated. Then because these things are so well built, we have companies like ProCharger that are selling 100% bolt-on supercharger kits that are dropping only 8 psi boost and hitting 50%-60% power increases. From there we can hit even more if we actually decide to go inside of the engine. And you'd still pay as much for the individual engine AND performance upgrade as you would just for the aftermarket it. PLUS these engines come with a 2 -Year warranty directly from Ford.

Now I don't know about Nissan. I don't see them selling their engines externally at all. Ford by contrast not only sells crate engines and turn-key engine controllers (though not publicly on the 3.7 Duratec right now), but they DO already sell the Duratec 3.7L engine and controllers directly to Ginetta for the Ginetta G60. So Ford already has not only quick turn-key engines that meet CARB and EPA standards, but they already have comfortable working relationships small-scale car companies in supplying entire engines to them (Bricklin SV1 anyone?). And then there's fuel economy with the VQ37VHR only getting 18 City & 26 Hwy, whereas the Ford Duratec is getting 19 City, and 28 Hwy with only a 300 lbs. difference between the two. But shave that off, and the economy goes up, as do the 0-60 times.

I don't know what might go on behind the scenes, but the only advantage I can see with the Nissan engine is the allure of an "exoitic" engine. Especially given how many GM guys there are around here. But the Ford is an engine right now that is ready to go, and meets the statement Espy had of being able to be serviced anywhere in the country. And yes, with it you would actually get a full OBD-II system in your DMC-12 to tune & monitor everything.

HOWEVER, remember, that isn't the only choice. The 3.7L is but one of two engine choices available according to the quote. GM does have the 4.3L LV3 V6, but it's a (rather wheezy) truck engine and no other viable EcoTec engines. Other people do have smaller engines as well, but V6 is really the best way to go. Both in terms of engine length, as well as weight since it is rear engined.

Now Chrysler does have a darkhorse with the 3.6L Pentastar engine. It also supposedly is not only rather light and compact, but with FCX's problems all over the place, I wouldn't put my money on them being the best of vendors out there.

So far, trying to be as unbiased as possible, Ford definitely looks like the best company to partner with. Which is pretty much coming full circle here since the Cologne Engine eventually evolved into/superceded by the Cyclone Series that is marketed as the current Duratec 3.7L we're talking about here. So this engine actually does already have somewhat of a heritage with the DMC-12.

[Dangermouse]

we'll see 50 or less cars built a similar fashion as the current remanufactured cars. IE, a donor car will be stripped, the hard to find NLA parts will be reused and everything else replaced with NOS. The only difference being that instead of reusing the existing engine or a 30 year old crate motor an EPA compliant engine will be installed and a new VIN assigned.

.

Why not just rebuild an old VIN with a new EPA motor?

[Mark D]

Why not just rebuild an old VIN with a new EPA motor?

Based on how the law is written I don't think that is an option.

Either you rebuild an existing VIN with existing/modified engine

OR

Build new/rebuild chassis with 2017 EPA certified engine and new VIN

I would assume the old VIN plates could be reused to build/rebuild other cars not using the 2017 certified engines that may have an undesirable scrap or rebuilt title.

[DMCVegas]

I don't pretend to know the finances of DMCH, but it seems like given the current size of the company that it would be an impossible task to bring all of those missing links back into production in the 5 year time span mentioned in the article and doing so at a price that doesn't bankrupt the company.

Now while I too cannot state anything as absolute fact, there was an article many years ago that really put things into perspective about all of this.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0919/090.html

[David T]

Now while I too cannot state anything as absolute fact, there was an article many years ago that really put things into perspective about all of this.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0919/090.html

It is not just about the EPA. The DOT has a lot of safety requirements too. Consider this, when DMCH bought all of the parts in Ohio, many of the parts are not the kind that wear out or need to be replaced. The only way to use that kind of part up is to build a whole car. That is what it is about. The appeal to owners of Deloreans is that DMCH can continue and be profitable so they can support the Delorean community by making available reproduction replacement parts. The fleet can continue only so long on parts scavenged from cannibalized wrecks, cross references, and NOS parts.