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Thread: Megasquirt question for Eagle 3.0 conversion

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  Jan 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    I think Josh and I both agree that whatever the solution, it would be nice if the MS2 and derivatives had just a couple more inputs and outputs.

    I like MS3 as the software has more options, not necessarily the fully loaded MS3X as it is probably overkill for most.

    Really my preference for the MS3 surrounds the hardware/software enabled by the faster CPU. It's new. It's hip. If you want to run AC control, there's a menu. If you want to run fan control, there's a menu. There's actually a lot of menus, for better or for worse, more than MS2.

    The versioning system is a bit ambiguous too:
    Megasquirt - currently supported
    Megasquirt PCB: v3.0. Hobby through-hole component version. Pretty much everybody uses this or a 3.57
    Megasquirt PCB: v3.57 is the surface mount version, virtually identical but not offered as a solder-together kit

    These are functionally identical. Both have the same clunky 37 pin connector which I think is not a great choice.

    CPUs - plug in to either of the above PCBs
    Megasquirt v2: 24MHz HCS12 CPU, serial only communication
    Megasquirt v3: 50Mhz MC9S12XEP100 CPU, native USB and SD card logging. Needs a bigger box though.
    Megasquirt v3 with MS3X: An add-on card for Megasquirt v3 that gives you a TON of inputs/outputs, individual injector drivers, individual coil drivers.

    Microsquirt
    Functionally similar to MS2, but in a proper enclosure and a real harness connector. Small, weatherproof.

    Microsquirt but repurposed as an IO-box?
    Getting weird in here isn't it? If you have an MS3 CPU, you can flash a different firmware and connect an MS3 to a Microsquirt module for additional I/O
    https://www.msextra.com/product-rang...squirt-io-box/
    This might be better than the 3X add-on as you can drop it on at any time via the 2 wires of the CAN bus.

    MS3-Pro, MSPNP and a whole bunch of OEM and engine specific boxes
    MS3X in a proper enclosure with a real harness. Or MS with engine-specific options are for LS motors, certain Fords, basically intended as plug & play ECU replacements.
    TBH these dangerously close in price to commercial solutions and probably of limited application in the DeLorean.
    Some good info here, thanks!

    I already knew about the 3.0 and the 3.57 board differences (through hole VS SMD); through hole components are easier for most to assemble. I wish they offered the SMD in kit form as I have all the tools to assemble SMD boards. This is my first steps into working on a custom EFI system, I am still planning and designing it. I bought the EFI book most recommend on other EFI boards to read up on to properly design and tune an EFI system.

    So is it not possible to create a kick up for the A/C or control the cooling fans using an MS2 or Squirt? I thought I read somewhere that another D owner hooked up some leads to the compressor circuit where it would signal the MS2 when the compressor was coming on to compensate the engine for the extra load, am I wrong?

    EDIT: Found the A/C mod: http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs...p-modification. Looks like some jumper wires are needed on the MS2 board. I assume that the MS3 already has a dedicated port for the A/C and Fan control already? I would assume that the MS3 would already have this mod in place since the "proto" area is no longer there to accommodate some extra mods that were included into it.
    Last edited by dmcman73; 06-16-2020 at 10:16 AM.

  2. #12
    '82 T3 FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

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    A lot of those things you can do in MS2 but through the use of the programmable outputs versus dedicated menus. It works but is a bit less featurefull:

    Fan control in MS2:
    https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ontrol-pao.jpg

    Fan control in MS3:
    https://imgur.com/KfaEzcR

    PWM fan control is MS3 exclusive


    Aircon control in MS3. In this case more than just an idle-up, but MS3 can selectively activate and deactivate the compressor based on multiple conditions.
    https://imgur.com/8Q9QO0V

    I cut the compressor wire behind the bulkhead connections and placed a relay in-line. Two wires to Megasquirt enabled full control: 12v call for AC, and the return "AC approved" switched ground signal from Megasquirt.

    This is from my car, you'll note the output is CANOUT16. I'm actually using the VVT output to trigger the compressor.
    I have aircon control tied in to another generic output that is contingent on coolant temp. It's part of a coolant temp fail-safe strategy that shuts down AC and defaults to low boost mode on a potential overheat.
    I can't imagine that this sort of decision matrix is possible in MS2.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  Jan 2019

    Posts:    225

    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    A lot of those things you can do in MS2 but through the use of the programmable outputs versus dedicated menus. It works but is a bit less featurefull:

    Fan control in MS2:
    https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ontrol-pao.jpg

    Fan control in MS3:
    https://imgur.com/KfaEzcR

    PWM fan control is MS3 exclusive


    Aircon control in MS3. In this case more than just an idle-up, but MS3 can selectively activate and deactivate the compressor based on multiple conditions.
    https://imgur.com/8Q9QO0V

    I cut the compressor wire behind the bulkhead connections and placed a relay in-line. Two wires to Megasquirt enabled full control: 12v call for AC, and the return "AC approved" switched ground signal from Megasquirt.

    This is from my car, you'll note the output is CANOUT16. I'm actually using the VVT output to trigger the compressor.
    I have aircon control tied in to another generic output that is contingent on coolant temp. It's part of a coolant temp fail-safe strategy that shuts down AC and defaults to low boost mode on a potential overheat.
    I can't imagine that this sort of decision matrix is possible in MS2.
    OK, looks like I'm now leaning more towards an MS3...lol

    Is your engine a stock 2.8 converted to EFI or an Eagle 3.0? If it's the Eagle 3.0, are you using the stock injectors for it or did you go with another one with more #'s?

    Thanks for all the info!

  4. #14
    '82 T3 FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

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    My VIN:    10270

    Stock 2.8 EFI converted w/ turbo.

    If you have the cam-mounted 3.0 distributor then you have a nice opportunity build a cam mounted pickup for full sync. Be easier to go full SFI and even COP/CNP but would require the MS3X.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  Jan 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Stock 2.8 EFI converted w/ turbo.

    If you have the cam-mounted 3.0 distributor then you have a nice opportunity build a cam mounted pickup for full sync. Be easier to go full SFI and even COP/CNP but would require the MS3X.
    It's a "dumb" cam mounted to the timing cover.

  6. #16
    '82 T3 FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    1,148

    My VIN:    10270

    The distributor rotor spins at 1/2 crank - you can whittle a half moon tooth & fix a nearby sensor. That would get you full sync and open SFI/COP options if you were interested. More complicated than MS2/EDIS but is possible.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

  7. #17
    LS Swapper Josh's Avatar
    Join Date:  Mar 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    I think Josh and I both agree that whatever the solution, it would be nice if the MS2 and derivatives had just a couple more inputs and outputs.

    I like MS3 as the software has more options, not necessarily the fully loaded MS3X as it is probably overkill for most.

    Really my preference for the MS3 surrounds the hardware/software enabled by the faster CPU. It's new. It's hip. If you want to run AC control, there's a menu. If you want to run fan control, there's a menu. There's actually a lot of menus, for better or for worse, more than MS2.

    The versioning system is a bit ambiguous too:
    Megasquirt - currently supported
    Megasquirt PCB: v3.0. Hobby through-hole component version. Pretty much everybody uses this or a 3.57
    Megasquirt PCB: v3.57 is the surface mount version, virtually identical but not offered as a solder-together kit

    These are functionally identical. Both have the same clunky 37 pin connector which I think is not a great choice.

    CPUs - plug in to either of the above PCBs
    Megasquirt v2: 24MHz HCS12 CPU, serial only communication
    Megasquirt v3: 50Mhz MC9S12XEP100 CPU, native USB and SD card logging. Needs a bigger box though.
    Megasquirt v3 with MS3X: An add-on card for Megasquirt v3 that gives you a TON of inputs/outputs, individual injector drivers, individual coil drivers.

    Microsquirt
    Functionally similar to MS2, but in a proper enclosure and a real harness connector. Small, weatherproof.

    Microsquirt but repurposed as an IO-box?
    Getting weird in here isn't it? If you have an MS3 CPU, you can flash a different firmware and connect an MS3 to a Microsquirt module for additional I/O
    https://www.msextra.com/product-rang...squirt-io-box/
    This might be better than the 3X add-on as you can drop it on at any time via the 2 wires of the CAN bus.

    MS3-Pro, MSPNP and a whole bunch of OEM and engine specific boxes
    MS3X in a proper enclosure with a real harness. Or MS with engine-specific options are for LS motors, certain Fords, basically intended as plug & play ECU replacements.
    TBH these dangerously close in price to commercial solutions and probably of limited application in the DeLorean.
    This is perfect.

    Supercharged 5.3L LS4 + Porsche 6spd
    [email protected]
    deloreanmidwest.com
    lsdelorean.com

  8. #18
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

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    I am running a B280F, distributor removed with EDIS for ignition and MAF based fuel. Back when I had to make this decision, I opted for the 'latest and greatest' MS3X. I believe part of the decision to get the expansion card was so that I could easily run the three-wire IAC motor. Another part of it is that I want to one day swap to a LS and thought having the 3X would give me more ability to do what I want in the future. I have fan control set up, I have AC idle up set, etc. and it has all been working great. I also have the distributor hole and was previously looking at ways to put a sensor and wheel on the cam for sequential but nothing ever came of it. I admit it would be fun to try out and accomplish but the engine is only a 2.8, running great currently and I lost motivation.

    As for the injectors, some of the original ones on the engine were clogged or spraying oddly. After researching a bit, I went with Bosch "pink top" injectors. I believe they are 21.5lb but I would need to look at my book at home to confirm. I did spend a good amount of time measuring CCs at different voltages etc and then putting all that info into tunerstudio.
    Last edited by dn010; 06-16-2020 at 04:24 PM.
    -----Dan B.

  9. #19
    LS Swapper Josh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    I am running a B280F, distributor removed with EDIS for ignition and MAF based fuel. Back when I had to make this decision, I opted for the 'latest and greatest' MS3X. I believe part of the decision to get the expansion card was so that I could easily run the three-wire IAC motor. Another part of it is that I want to one day swap to a LS and thought having the 3X would give me more ability to do what I want in the future. I have fan control set up, I have AC idle up set, etc. and it has all been working great. I also have the distributor hole and was previously looking at ways to put a sensor and wheel on the cam for sequential but nothing ever came of it. I admit it would be fun to try out and accomplish but the engine is only a 2.8, running great currently and I lost motivation.

    As for the injectors, some of the original ones on the engine were clogged or spraying oddly. After researching a bit, I went with Bosch "pink top" injectors. I believe they are 21.5lb but I would need to look at my book at home to confirm. I did spend a good amount of time measuring CCs at different voltages etc and then putting all that info into tunerstudio.
    another example of something a Microsquirt could handle easily.
    I am curious about your MAF based system. I am looking to travel down this road but it seems like many do not care to in the megasquirt community. As far as i am concerned and validated with my tuning with the LS platform ecus, MAF is a beautiful thing.
    Would you be willing to share your tune so I could see what you did to set it up?

    Supercharged 5.3L LS4 + Porsche 6spd
    [email protected]
    deloreanmidwest.com
    lsdelorean.com

  10. #20
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    another example of something a Microsquirt could handle easily.
    I am curious about your MAF based system. I am looking to travel down this road but it seems like many do not care to in the megasquirt community. As far as i am concerned and validated with my tuning with the LS platform ecus, MAF is a beautiful thing.
    Would you be willing to share your tune so I could see what you did to set it up?
    As far as I know, I am the only one running a MAF EFI system in a DeLorean. The settings will remain the same for the rest of the tune except you'll run a MAF curve for fueling - all you really need is a good flow curve for the MAF you choose to run and you don't have to screw around trying to figure out a fuel table. From there, you can alter the curve as needed or you can alter the fuel table if you need to tweak some things (you still get a fuel table but it's all 0’s when you use a MAF curve, you can + or – as needed). The rest of the settings are the same regardless of fueling.

    For me, going MAF based just sort of happened. I wanted to keep the B280F pretty much as ‘drop in’ as possible meaning I would be using the Bosch MAF it came with. So I traced the wiring and the issues began once I found this particular MAF had a ‘burn off’ feature. I’ll skip the whole explanation on what that is and just admit that I couldn’t figure out a simple way to implement it. The next issue was I could only find a very limited flow curve for that particular sensor and had to pretty much calculate, as best as I could, what the rest of the curve might be. It ran, but it ran poorly. I started looking at sensors and what others in the Megasquirt community, as a whole, were running and ended up with a 6-wire Ford MAF along with a pretty detailed curve. It ran great. I went with the “6 wire” sensor because it also has an IAT built in, like the original Bosch did – one less sensor to worry about installing somewhere.

    Because I am still working during these lovely times, it may take me a day or two to send but I will PM you my tune.

    Below is a photo of my setup. It is certainly no beautiful LS yet, it is a little dirty and I still really need to do something about the air filter location but at least it is done and reliably going down the road.

    Last edited by dn010; 06-17-2020 at 11:24 AM.
    -----Dan B.

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