Electromotive TEC-II on Eagle 3.0L PRV - Fuel Priming Issues
Hello! I am the proud owner of 2860. I bought her in December of last year from a gentleman in Eagle, ID. This car has a 3.0L PRV out of an Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco. It's equipped with a TEC-II ECU from Electromotive. From what I've been told/researched online, John Lane installed the engine in the early 2000's and Toby Peterson of PNDC "cleaned" the install up.
Since I got the car, it's had an intermittent issue with the fuel pump priming. When I first got it, the issue only happened once in a while. But since about half a year ago, it's become much worse. Usually, when I turn the key to the ON position the fuel pump will either prime for exactly 20 seconds or not at all. There is no discernable pattern as to what causes it. Sometimes I'll sit in the garage and prime it every single time I turn the key 20 times in a row. When the pump doesn't prime, there is a good chance the car isn't moving for anywhere between 5 minutes to 3 hours. I have to wait until the next time it feels like priming and then I can be on my way again.
Every once in a while, the fuel pump will kick in and prime for about 5 seconds after I've left the key on for a little while. On that same note, I've also had it prime and then start up and die. If this happens, there's a 99% chance it won't prime on the next try. And if it doesn't, it will NOT start up. It's almost like the ECU has to know that the fuel pump has primed or the car will just outright refuse to start - regardless of fuel pressure.
Things I've tried:
Tracing the wiring to ensure it's intact
Replacing the connectors from the wiring to the fuel pump
Jumping the intertia switch to ensure it's not failing
Replacing the fuel pump relay - (I actually replaced every relay at this point just because)
Using a multimeter to ensure the relay is getting current when I turn the key - I've checked when the car is priming and when it is not. There is current to the relay when the pump is priming, and no current when it is not. With this in mind, it seems either the ECU is failing or it is otherwise refusing to prime due to a parameter that prevents it from doing so.
Jumping the fuel pump relay - If I jump the battery directly to the fuel pump, the pump turns on. However, if I crank the engine while the relay is jumped it still won't start.
Hooking a laptop up to the TEC-II - I've installed Wintec 1.6 to see if there were any settings regarding priming, but I've not seen anything that I can adjust.
Pulling off the return line to bleed fuel pressure in case the ECU "thinks there is enough"
I'm about at my wits end, and I'm considering making the jump to Megasquirt. Electromotive is seemingly going out of business. They announced on their website a couple weeks ago that they are no longer selling or repairing any products and that are seeking new business partners. To me, it makes sense because the TEC-II is so old. If I jumped, would I want to go straight to the Megasquirt 3? Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
Hello! I am the proud owner of 2860. I bought her in December of last year from a gentleman in Eagle, ID. This car has a 3.0L PRV out of an Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco. It's equipped with a TEC-II ECU from Electromotive. From what I've been told/researched online, John Lane installed the engine in the early 2000's and Toby Peterson of PNDC "cleaned" the install up.
Since I got the car, it's had an intermittent issue with the fuel pump priming. When I first got it, the issue only happened once in a while. But since about half a year ago, it's become much worse. Usually, when I turn the key to the ON position the fuel pump will either prime for exactly 20 seconds or not at all. There is no discernable pattern as to what causes it. Sometimes I'll sit in the garage and prime it every single time I turn the key 20 times in a row. When the pump doesn't prime, there is a good chance the car isn't moving for anywhere between 5 minutes to 3 hours. I have to wait until the next time it feels like priming and then I can be on my way again.
Every once in a while, the fuel pump will kick in and prime for about 5 seconds after I've left the key on for a little while. On that same note, I've also had it prime and then start up and die. If this happens, there's a 99% chance it won't prime on the next try. And if it doesn't, it will NOT start up. It's almost like the ECU has to know that the fuel pump has primed or the car will just outright refuse to start - regardless of fuel pressure.
Things I've tried:
Tracing the wiring to ensure it's intact
Replacing the connectors from the wiring to the fuel pump
Jumping the intertia switch to ensure it's not failing
Replacing the fuel pump relay - (I actually replaced every relay at this point just because)
Using a multimeter to ensure the relay is getting current when I turn the key - I've checked when the car is priming and when it is not. There is current to the relay when the pump is priming, and no current when it is not. With this in mind, it seems either the ECU is failing or it is otherwise refusing to prime due to a parameter that prevents it from doing so.
Jumping the fuel pump relay - If I jump the battery directly to the fuel pump, the pump turns on. However, if I crank the engine while the relay is jumped it still won't start.
Hooking a laptop up to the TEC-II - I've installed Wintec 1.6 to see if there were any settings regarding priming, but I've not seen anything that I can adjust.
Pulling off the return line to bleed fuel pressure in case the ECU "thinks there is enough"
I'm about at my wits end, and I'm considering making the jump to Megasquirt. Electromotive is seemingly going out of business. They announced on their website a couple weeks ago that they are no longer selling or repairing any products and that are seeking new business partners. To me, it makes sense because the TEC-II is so old. If I jumped, would I want to go straight to the Megasquirt 3? Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
When you say you connect the fuel pump direct to battery, are you saying that you connect the plus and negative side to it bypassing the relays and inertia switch? If so, so you hear the pump go on?
If you disconnect the fuel feed line (coming from the filter), place it in a gas can and turn your car to the on position (not starting) or jump the fuel pump, is gas spraying out? It will come out pretty fast so be sure to secure the hose into a large gas can or hook up a fuel pressure tester (much safer) to see if you're getting the correct pressure and that fuel is actually flowing.
Does your car still have it's fuel accumulator? If so, see if there is any fuel in the small line connected to the back of it, the line won't have a clamp on it and should pop off. If there is fuel in that line, the accumulator went bad and is allowing fuel to leak past it, this could cause fuel pressure issues and fuel delivery issues as well.
I am not familiar with the ECU you are using, but the Megasquirt ECU's have multiple grounds to it that need to be connected in a certain way (some direct to battery, some to the block, etc), check the manuals for your ECU and verify that all of those grounds are connected correctly
If you are getting fuel, are all your injectors spraying during cranking? Do you know if the fuel delivery is set to batch fuel injection or sequential?
Are you getting spark during cranking? Is the ignition set to wasted spark or sequential spark? If sequential, then you will have a sensor on one of the cams, I would double check that to make sure it is not bad or the metal tooth gear hasn't come loose causing the ignition to fire in the incorrect order.
My two guesses on this is that either your fuel pump may be bad, or if the pump is the original Bosch, the lines in the gas tank may have a crack in them or your ECU is failing. Do you have a Dyno tuner around your area that is knowledgeable with your brand ECU?
With a custom setup like this (as with any engine swap), it's difficult to trouble shoot without knowing how the ECU was programmed.
EDIT: If you are looking to go to Megasquirt, I do have a brand new Megasquirt 3 ECU I am selling without a harness. Just be warned, that if you do go to Megasquirt, you will need to make a lot of modifications to your existing harness going to your current ECU and program the Megasquirt from scratch. The big plus side of doing all that work, the Megasquirt community is much more vast and helpful and more dyno tuners are familiar with Megasquirt.
With any EFI ECU that is set up to prime the pump at key-on, you will hear the fuel pump. It's hard to miss, so I'd not dig in to the pump/hose side of things just yet.
There should be an option in the software to run the fuel pump continuously. I'd turn that on and start wiggling wires. If you find nothing you should be able to ground the ECU wire that controls the fuel pump relay and see if that does it.
Does it ever stall when running, or is this just a startup problem?
Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection
Sorry for such a late response. Life really picked up last week between work, studying, and vacation. Took the DeLorean on a 400 mile round trip run last weekend to meet up with the PNDC. Surprisingly did very well. It did fail to prime a couple times over the weekend, but I only had to wait a minute or two both times.
Originally Posted by dmcman73
When you say you connect the fuel pump direct to battery, are you saying that you connect the plus and negative side to it bypassing the relays and inertia switch? If so, so you hear the pump go on?
If you disconnect the fuel feed line (coming from the filter), place it in a gas can and turn your car to the on position (not starting) or jump the fuel pump, is gas spraying out? It will come out pretty fast so be sure to secure the hose into a large gas can or hook up a fuel pressure tester (much safer) to see if you're getting the correct pressure and that fuel is actually flowing.
Does your car still have it's fuel accumulator? If so, see if there is any fuel in the small line connected to the back of it, the line won't have a clamp on it and should pop off. If there is fuel in that line, the accumulator went bad and is allowing fuel to leak past it, this could cause fuel pressure issues and fuel delivery issues as well.
I am not familiar with the ECU you are using, but the Megasquirt ECU's have multiple grounds to it that need to be connected in a certain way (some direct to battery, some to the block, etc), check the manuals for your ECU and verify that all of those grounds are connected correctly
If you are getting fuel, are all your injectors spraying during cranking? Do you know if the fuel delivery is set to batch fuel injection or sequential?
Are you getting spark during cranking? Is the ignition set to wasted spark or sequential spark? If sequential, then you will have a sensor on one of the cams, I would double check that to make sure it is not bad or the metal tooth gear hasn't come loose causing the ignition to fire in the incorrect order.
My two guesses on this is that either your fuel pump may be bad, or if the pump is the original Bosch, the lines in the gas tank may have a crack in them or your ECU is failing. Do you have a Dyno tuner around your area that is knowledgeable with your brand ECU?
With a custom setup like this (as with any engine swap), it's difficult to trouble shoot without knowing how the ECU was programmed.
EDIT: If you are looking to go to Megasquirt, I do have a brand new Megasquirt 3 ECU I am selling without a harness. Just be warned, that if you do go to Megasquirt, you will need to make a lot of modifications to your existing harness going to your current ECU and program the Megasquirt from scratch. The big plus side of doing all that work, the Megasquirt community is much more vast and helpful and more dyno tuners are familiar with Megasquirt.
I've jumped the fuel pump relay with a wire to make the ECU run power to the fuel pump, and I've sat a battery in the trunk and ran it straight to the fuel pump to make sure the pump was fine.
I absolutely need to try getting a fuel pressure gauge to see what kind of pressure I'm getting. I haven't really messed with any of the fuel lines since the last car show, but I plan to take a look once I've ruled out the ECU.
I haven't yet checked to make sure every injector is spraying during crank. Funny enough, I was talking to Toby Peterson of PNDC last weekend and he mentioned that it probably wouldn't hurt replacing all of them anyway. As far as I know, they are set to sequential.
I can finally confirm that I'm getting spark during crank. As for whether that's wasted or sequential spark, I couldn't say. Again, either I'm missing it or the software won't tell me. I've had a couple people tell me the same thing regarding my cam sensor. I have to take an exam this afternoon, but I'll definitely take a look at this when I get back.
I am almost completely convinced that it's time to upgrade to the Megasquirt 3. Even if the TECII isn't the source of the problem, I don't think it's a terrible idea to upgrade to something that has more support and is far more modern. If you'd like, I can shoot you a PM so that we can possibly work out a deal!
Originally Posted by FABombjoy
With any EFI ECU that is set up to prime the pump at key-on, you will hear the fuel pump. It's hard to miss, so I'd not dig in to the pump/hose side of things just yet.
There should be an option in the software to run the fuel pump continuously. I'd turn that on and start wiggling wires. If you find nothing you should be able to ground the ECU wire that controls the fuel pump relay and see if that does it.
Does it ever stall when running, or is this just a startup problem?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find any way to mess with the fuel pump in the software at all. I'm either missing it, or I'm working with very primative software. All the more reason for me to probably upgrade.
I finally took the ECU out of the car and took it apart. The whole thing comes together in two pieces. I found there is a relay on one of the circuit boards for the fuel pump. I'd like to take it off and see if it's causing all my problems. The issue is that both circuit boards are covered in this thick gray stuff to protect it from the elements. It's almost got a rubber sort of feel to it. I think i should be able to cut through it in order to get the relay desoldered. I may even just take it somewhere to have a professional handle it.
As for your question, it has only ever stalled out twice and that was a couple weeks ago. Both times were at a green light. It was almost like the car was running out of gas both times that it happened. Strange enough, the ECU would not prime both times afterwards but the car would still fire right back up again.
Using a multimeter to ensure the relay is getting current when I turn the key - I've checked when the car is priming and when it is not. There is current to the relay when the pump is priming, and no current when it is not.
Jumping the fuel pump relay - If I jump the battery directly to the fuel pump, the pump turns on. However, if I crank the engine while the relay is jumped it still won't start.
These two lines jumped out at me. First would indicate it’s not a pump problem. Second might indicate that your key switch may not be giving power to your ECU.
I don’t claim to know anything about your system, but sometimes it’s something simple.
Sorry for such a late response. Life really picked up last week between work, studying, and vacation. Took the DeLorean on a 400 mile round trip run last weekend to meet up with the PNDC. Surprisingly did very well. It did fail to prime a couple times over the weekend, but I only had to wait a minute or two both times.
I've jumped the fuel pump relay with a wire to make the ECU run power to the fuel pump, and I've sat a battery in the trunk and ran it straight to the fuel pump to make sure the pump was fine.
I absolutely need to try getting a fuel pressure gauge to see what kind of pressure I'm getting. I haven't really messed with any of the fuel lines since the last car show, but I plan to take a look once I've ruled out the ECU.
I haven't yet checked to make sure every injector is spraying during crank. Funny enough, I was talking to Toby Peterson of PNDC last weekend and he mentioned that it probably wouldn't hurt replacing all of them anyway. As far as I know, they are set to sequential.
I can finally confirm that I'm getting spark during crank. As for whether that's wasted or sequential spark, I couldn't say. Again, either I'm missing it or the software won't tell me. I've had a couple people tell me the same thing regarding my cam sensor. I have to take an exam this afternoon, but I'll definitely take a look at this when I get back.
I am almost completely convinced that it's time to upgrade to the Megasquirt 3. Even if the TECII isn't the source of the problem, I don't think it's a terrible idea to upgrade to something that has more support and is far more modern. If you'd like, I can shoot you a PM so that we can possibly work out a deal!
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find any way to mess with the fuel pump in the software at all. I'm either missing it, or I'm working with very primative software. All the more reason for me to probably upgrade.
I finally took the ECU out of the car and took it apart. The whole thing comes together in two pieces. I found there is a relay on one of the circuit boards for the fuel pump. I'd like to take it off and see if it's causing all my problems. The issue is that both circuit boards are covered in this thick gray stuff to protect it from the elements. It's almost got a rubber sort of feel to it. I think i should be able to cut through it in order to get the relay desoldered. I may even just take it somewhere to have a professional handle it.
As for your question, it has only ever stalled out twice and that was a couple weeks ago. Both times were at a green light. It was almost like the car was running out of gas both times that it happened. Strange enough, the ECU would not prime both times afterwards but the car would still fire right back up again.
If you have a Cam sensor, you may be running sequential spark. If the sensor is starting to go bad or to inputs to the ECU are not seeing the needed signal from the cam sensor, your plugs won't fire correctly. If you have the software and can figure it out, I would turn on logging for that or monitor it as you drive to see if you have a signal drop out. There could also be noise being introduced into the signals as well. For Megasquirt, they highly suggest (and their wiring harness kits come with) shielded wires for sensors for the crank and the cam.
If you're interested in the MS3 I have, shoot me a PM.
Well, it's been quite a long time since my last post but I thought I'd let you folks know that the issue is now seemingly behind me! 2860 has officially gone Megasquirt.
I bought the MS3 with the MS3X from DIYautotune, then had my brother help me wire it all in. We ran into some issues here and there and consulted Chris from SpeedyEFI. I'm from CDA, ID, so he was able to come out and diagnose/tune the car until we got it running better than I've ever seen it run. I got to drive it for the first time since September and I can't remember the last time something made me so happy. Thanks to everyone that helped me try to pin the issue down in this thread. My guess is either the TEC-II was not working right or tuned incorrectly.
Well, it's been quite a long time since my last post but I thought I'd let you folks know that the issue is now seemingly behind me! 2860 has officially gone Megasquirt.
I bought the MS3 with the MS3X from DIYautotune, then had my brother help me wire it all in. We ran into some issues here and there and consulted Chris from SpeedyEFI. I'm from CDA, ID, so he was able to come out and diagnose/tune the car until we got it running better than I've ever seen it run. I got to drive it for the first time since September and I can't remember the last time something made me so happy. Thanks to everyone that helped me try to pin the issue down in this thread. My guess is either the TEC-II was not working right or tuned incorrectly.
I am getting ready to install my 3.0 this summer with Megasquirt, any tips? Care to share the tune on your Megasquirt as a base?
I am getting ready to install my 3.0 this summer with Megasquirt, any tips? Care to share the tune on your Megasquirt as a base?
Certainly! Please keep in mind that this tune is very young and is only good up to 5500RPM. Chris of SpeedyEFI set an RPM limiter and asked me not to remove it under any circumstances until we are sure the current tune is absolutely solid. Anything above 5500 has been left completely untouched. With that in mind, I am running wasted spark with the MS3X and running it to DIYautotunes QuadSpark ignition module. From there, it's going to their IGN-6 six tower coil pack. You'll have to adjust all of your ignition settings if you plan on running sequential. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll do my best to answer them.
Certainly! Please keep in mind that this tune is very young and is only good up to 5500RPM. Chris of SpeedyEFI set an RPM limiter and asked me not to remove it under any circumstances until we are sure the current tune is absolutely solid. Anything above 5500 has been left completely untouched. With that in mind, I am running wasted spark with the MS3X and running it to DIYautotunes QuadSpark ignition module. From there, it's going to their IGN-6 six tower coil pack. You'll have to adjust all of your ignition settings if you plan on running sequential. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll do my best to answer them.
Thanks!
I don't plan on dropping the tune in an running, I wanted to just poke around and see what you have set, especially for the engine settings itself (displacement, etc). I'll be running wasted spark as well but I'm using the LS coils.
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Originally Posted by Coppertank
