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Thread: Front wheels far forward in opening (and rear tire clearance)

  1. #31
    Daily Driver ssdelorean's Avatar
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    Before his passing, Cliff Schmucker, was doing a study and measuring front spring compression rates to try and figure out what was going on with all of the different "nose high" vs "nose low" stock deloreans. He was starting notice only slight variations in the stock springs which then lead him to start taking measurements of the mounting areas in relation to the frame. He found more variations there than in the springs which led him to believe either it was in intentional change in how the mounts were welded or just not very accurate assembly. If true, this also might have a play in why some cars are more forward than others.

    Patrick C,
    Please add any additional info I may have forgotten from Cliff's studies.


    Body panel alignment is another small factor to consider as well.


    With under 10,000 hand built cars, not all of our glorified prototypes were created equal.
    Shannon Y
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    ---
    1st angle drive - 58,027 miles (20 years) -- original
    2nd angle drive - 48,489 miles (21 years) -- original from donor
    3rd angle drive - 26,572 miles (2 years 3 months) -- DMCH
    4th angle drive - 21,988 miles (1 year 11 months) -- DMCH
    5th angle drive - 7,137 miles (10 months 2 days) -- DMCH
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    over 245K miles

  2. #32
    Junior Mint Member Carbuilder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    I run 16x7, 4x100, 65mm center bore, 48mm offset.
    I had a 10mm spacer made to downsize 72.1 -> 65mm and center the wheel about where originals sit. Stock studs worked. No real poke, 205/45 tires.
    I ran these for years before having full adjustment up front and corner hard. No rubbing.
    With that offset and width I agree that there would be no poke, but they would be about 1" more on the inside. As it is now, on full turn my tires come close to the sway bar. With another inch I couldn't go full lock without interference. How did you get around that?

  3. #33
    Junior Mint Member Carbuilder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David T View Post
    Very few owners have larger tires/wheels on the front mainly because of room issues with the body, frame and interference with the suspension during turns. Keep experimenting and keep us informed with your progress...
    I am trying to go with larger wheels, but the tire width and diameter would be the same as stock, so not much is changing. A weight difference in the wheel/tire, but that's about it.

  4. #34
    '82 T3 FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbuilder View Post
    How did you get around that?
    It's not a problem I've had. No contact at full lock and doing parking lot figure 8s
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

  5. #35
    Senior Member - Owner since 2003 Patrick C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssdelorean View Post
    Before his passing, Cliff Schmucker, was doing a study and measuring front spring compression rates to try and figure out what was going on with all of the different "nose high" vs "nose low" stock deloreans. He was starting notice only slight variations in the stock springs which then lead him to start taking measurements of the mounting areas in relation to the frame. He found more variations there than in the springs which led him to believe either it was in intentional change in how the mounts were welded or just not very accurate assembly. If true, this also might have a play in why some cars are more forward than others.

    Patrick C,
    Please add any additional info I may have forgotten from Cliff's studies.


    Body panel alignment is another small factor to consider as well.


    With under 10,000 hand built cars, not all of our glorified prototypes were created equal.
    This was a decade or more ago, but I seem to recall Ed Uding chiming in and telling us that there were 2 (or more) different sets of underbody molds and depending on which one made your underbody, it would affect the stance of your car. Hence how a set of lowering springs might look slammed on one car and not on another. Factor that in with panel alignment and this can explain what we are talking about in this thread.
    Patrick C.
    VIN 1880

  6. #36
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    I'd suspect since the body and frame don't have a way of centrally locating each other the same upon assembly on each car, that might make some slight differences as well since the capture nut is able to move around in the cage.
    -----Dan B.

  7. #37
    Junior Mint Member Carbuilder's Avatar
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    I owe you an apology FABombjoy.....sort of.

    I stumbled on an interesting article on a Ferrari site where someone bought a Delorean and was upgrading the suspension and brakes (to Ferrari brakes). The front wheels were forward in the wheel well about as much as mine are. A suspension engineer friend apparently looked at it and said it is sort of a torsion bar suspension (the sway bar being the torsion bar) and that helps support the LCA. He shimmed the sway bar attachment and that moved the LCA back quite a bit. So it does seem possible, but I still don't think that is a good way to do it (loading the bushings on angles). Also, it isn't really a true torsion bar suspension since both wheels going up/down would have no load from the torsion part.

    Anyways, it got me thinking and doing more investigating. My first thought was that doing it that way reduces the caster which is not a good thing. So the first step was to find out how much caster I have. I used a gauge I've had for a long time but never used. Since I couldn't put it on a wheel without making some sort of fixture (which I will probably do at some point) as the gauge has magnets. So I supported the car on the outboard end of the LCA's and took the wheels off. I figured that should be pretty close to simulating the car on the ground.

    The camber is about 1/2 degree on each side, so in the right direction but pretty minimal. The caster is 7 1/2 degrees on each side which I was pleased about. That gives me room to move the LCA back and still have adequate caster. I did some measuring and calculating and came up with this.

    To reduce the caster from 7 1/2 degrees to 5 degrees I would move the LCA back about .4". Not a huge amount, but since I have .75" clearance now, that's pretty good. I could move the UCA rearwards by taking the 2 washers from the front side and moving them to the rear. That would result in about .8 degree caster change.

    So I took enough apart to see how much the LCA can move. I removed the LCA braces that are on the car. I have done no mods to it since getting it; anything done to it was done by the previous owner, which includes all new bushings. I removed the sway bar attachments on the frame and loosened the attachment on the LCA. With the car now supported on the frame, I really couldn't move the LCA back and forth much at all; maybe 1/16" total. I don't think forcing it back mechanically is a good way to go. I would like to move the control arms back maybe 1/2" or so; at least the lower one and the upper one can be moved less and still have decent caster.

    The upper one can be moved a little with the washer swap. Not sure if any machining is possible to move it more; can't really tell unless I take it all apart. I can't really figure out how the lower one attaches to the frame. I've looked at the exploded view and it isn't clear what can be done. I'll need to take it apart to see.

    I think I should install lowering springs while I'm taking things apart. Any recommendations on which ones I should get? I was also thinking of the adjustable rod end type LCA reinforcement instead of the fixed ones I have now. I could use that adjustment to move the arm a little I suppose.

    Caster/camber gauge attached:

    Screenshot 2025-02-04 at 2.47.18 PM.jpg

    LCA reinforcing plate removed and bolts left loose:

    Screenshot 2025-02-04 at 2.48.21 PM.jpg

    Sway bar attachment removed, reinforcing plate disconnected and bolts loose:

    Screenshot 2025-02-04 at 2.47.58 PM.jpg

    Looks like 2 washers I could swap to the other side. Not sure if I can do anything else:

    Screenshot 2025-02-04 at 2.48.39 PM.jpg

    Not sure how this works for attaching the LCA to the frame. Are the tube looking things spacers? Is there one bushing or 2?

    Screenshot 2025-02-04 at 2.49.03 PM.jpg
    Last edited by Carbuilder; 02-04-2025 at 06:21 PM.

  8. #38
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    The tube looking things are built into the frame, scroll down in the link below to look at the frame without the LCA attached. There is only one bushing per side on the lower.

    https://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1...me-for-sale-MT

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbuilder View Post

    Not sure how this works for attaching the LCA to the frame. Are the tube looking things spacers? Is there one bushing or 2?
    -----Dan B.

  9. #39
    Junior Mint Member Carbuilder's Avatar
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    Thank you for that. So moving the LCA rearwards is pretty easy then. Cut off about 1/2" from the rear tube and make a 1/2" spacer for the front.

  10. #40
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbuilder View Post
    Thank you for that. So moving the LCA rearwards is pretty easy then. Cut off about 1/2" from the rear tube and make a 1/2" spacer for the front.
    Not so simple: you'll still have the sway bar pulling the LCAs forward to the original position which will destroy the bushings. You'd have to either move the sway bar mounting back or figure out how to extend the ends of the bar that attach to the control arm. Not sure what that would do to your steering or handling. I'm always with the frame of mind that it was done the way it was originally for a reason.
    -----Dan B.

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