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Thread: High Energy Ignition (HEI)

  1. #101
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    I'm not going to post something saying I've been a mechanic for 30 years, blah blah blah. I'm just going to say facts which I have been doing all along.
    You brought it up and said I didn't have any (experience). I don't see why I shouldn't tell you mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    About 6 months ago I decided to upgrade my ignition. I purchased a high performance coil, MSD spark plug wires, and new spark plugs.

    I gapped my new plugs to .05 and didn't bother to increase voltage going into the ignition coil. I left the resistor grid wired to put 6 - 8 volts into the coil.
    I already said I'm sorry you were silly enough not to follow the directions.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    The car ran perfect at .05 only after I increaed voltage going into the coil.
    I told you you were not on the same page...That is primary voltage! I have been talking about secondary voltage (relatively more coils in the secondary = more voltage output) and about voltage at the plug gap. You are putting words in my mouth (or thoughts in my head?), again. I've seen that idea here, but I didn't say it.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    Ron can post all the foolishness he wants but I am not responding to anymore of his posts on this subject.
    Good. You really haven't been doing that anyway...most of it was pick and poke instead...and the majority of the rest on some other page.

    ======
    I was asked to do this, so here goes for the benefit of the doubt:

    Take a deep breath, calm down, get on the same page and read this:
    From the beginning, primary voltage...
    Voltage (E) = Amperage(I) x Resistance(R), so R = E/I. At the moment before a spark, the resistance at the plug gap is a fixed value (it changes afterward but too involved to get into here), so, if we increase the primary's input voltage, the secondary's output voltage must increase. Now, (P)ower = I x E. Since we increased E and I (it will draw what it wants), we increase P. This is all you had to do to increase energy at the gap. You could of accomplish this by bypassing 1/2 or all of the resistor grid (that's what its job is!). Not a good idea...the rotor, especially one with a resistor in it, will not like it on a long trip (The more you run through them the more heat they give Sparky [oops FS, um,] off...); The change in energy changes the burn characteristics, including the moment of max burn (we want this to happen when the piston/crank is at the optimum position. [For those who wonder why timing is often set to a point before the position even reaches the top...That is basically why...the higher the RPM the sooner we have to start the burn...time]; The list goes on and on.
    FWIW, I believe you (at least basically) knew most of this.
    =====
    Now, the other page...the 'a plug with widened gap will not fire' - '"performance" includes HP and emissions' page.

    I was, collectively, being told it is wrong to say increasing gap alone increases energy at the gap. And, that if we widen a gap, there would not be enough voltage to jump it.
    That leaves us (me anyway) wondering how engines with wide/worn gaps run. [Bill said it won't. You didn't answer, even though the question was directed to you.] I see it like, we increase R by widening the gap and it still runs, so it must be sparking. So, we must have increased the energy. Now, we are back to P = I x E. We raised P, so...

    As for "performance" includes HP and emissions, that was aimed at Bill, IIRC. Besides, he has repeatedly ignored the question from almost everyone since he knows most of ALL of the above (enough to be dangerous anyway) and that it contradicts his 'coil alone improves performance' statement(s) and his glorious paper (that is supposed to shed new light on 1981 technology (while it points to and agrees with a 1960s paper , and this particular point w/o question ).The screwball is arguing with himself.
    ...and wants me to argue with both of them (or should I say all three of you? )

  2. #102
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Yeah, I have a DMCH headlight switch, so it's not bone stock.
    OMG! I forgot to mention my speedometer and boost gauge.

  3. #103
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by content22207 View Post
    I'm pretty sure Ron and Martin realize they are wrong, and rather than taking their lumps they are just trying to steer this thread off in tangential directions.
    No, you did that, as far as I am concerned, when you said that changing the coil alone would increase performance...I was in a neutral corner until then.
    That invoked the performance/HP-emission crap you kept ignoring from most everyone.
    But I see below you are trying to sneak it in now -- Along with your conclusions on their conclusions.

    I wonder how long it will take you to pick on a another typo, verbiage, insignificant piece, etc, and start of on another tangent or explode with more extraneous truths.

    "Delorean...lean burning...2011"
    More fun than a barrel of monkeys.

    Love ya Bill.
    I'm done...really...truly.

    Quote Originally Posted by content22207 View Post
    Back to the thread at hand:

    If an owner wants:
    - decreased emissions
    - more reliable combustion
    - more complete combustion
    especially in a lean burning engine like the a DeLorean PRV, there is no better way to accomplish that than to increase secondary ignition voltage and spark plug gap.

    Engineers from AC Delco, Lucas, Ford, and Champion all agree.

    Every American and Japanese car manufacturer came to the same conclusion, and did just that in the 1970's -- a practice that continues to this day (they did so first on the exact same engines that had been running smaller plug gaps with breaker points -- ignition technology that inherently limited secondary voltage and spark plug gaps, then continued doing so on newer designed engines).

    A subset of European manufacturers continued using lower voltage ignition and smaller plug gaps, even after breakerless ignition made higher voltage ignition and larger plug gaps possible. Evidence points to a reluctance to redesign the ignition coil -- a necessary step towards high energy ignition.

    The PRV, as used in a DeLorean, can benefit greatly from higher voltage ignition. That is why Renault/Chrysler started using higher voltage capacitive coils and a larger plug gap for the 3.0 version of our engines (Autozone shows the 3.0 PRV plug gap as .044", but other online sources show it .030-.035" -- both are wider than the original DeLorean spec).

    Bill Robertson
    #5939

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    But I see below you are trying to sneak it in now -- Along with your conclusions on their conclusions.
    Not to point out the obvious, but I *DID* mention emissions (and fuel economy) in the very first post of this thread, as a quote from an even earlier post of mine in other thread....

    Bill Robertson
    #5939

  5. #105
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by content22207 View Post
    (I have no idea who made Chrysler's 3.0 ignition)
    Probably Renault/Bendix; it was their powerplant. The Eagle Premier was derived from the R25. The car was originally to be marketed in the USA by AMC as a Renault. Chrysler’s acquisition of AMC came just prior to the car’s introduction, thus the change of badging and labels was rushed but the car’s production was not.

    The original model (198 of the Premier had AMC build plates on the driver's door, and even in 1989 the Premier an emissions decal under the hood that stated, "American Motors Corporation" and then in tiny letters, "Built by Chrysler." All models still had radiator hoses with the AMC logo.

    It seems that Chrysler is in the habit of not changing what they yank from other manufacturers -- the Chrysler Crossfire's engine compartment is 100% Mercedes-Benz, right down to the German/English labeling, metric measurements, and a Mercedes-Benz logo on the air filter cover!

    OK, that's enough trivia for one day. Back to our regularly scheduled pointless arguments.

    Farrar
    3.0L, automatic, carbureted

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrar View Post
    OK, that's enough trivia for one day. Back to our regularly scheduled pointless arguments.
    You don't know what you are talking about. Our arguments are not pointless.

  7. #107
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    You don't know what you are talking about. Our arguments are not pointless.
    That was a pun. Point-less ... points ... ignition!

    Ah, well.

    Farrar
    3.0L, automatic, carbureted

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrar View Post
    it was their powerplant.
    Actually Volvo was the lead partner on the B280 redesign. Volvo also started using the new engine one year earlier: 1987. And Volvo owned the Douvrin tooling (note the scene in the Pennebaker documentary where Chuck Benington is explaining to JZD that Volvo wants royalties on DeLorean engines even though they were sourced from Renault).

    The Eagle Premier was just Chrysler's way of satisfying Renault purchase requirements in the AMC acquisition. Nobody at Chrysler liked the car.

    The most important thing about the 3.0 versus the B280 for the purposes of this thread is that Chrysler went with totally different ignition for what is basically the same engine, which clearly demonstrates:
    - HEI works just fine on a PRV
    - a major manufacturer itself chose HEI over low energy Bosch ignition for its PRV's (HEI on a PRV is not just the province of a few DeLorean owners cobbling something together from the pages of Jegs and Summit)

    Bill Robertson
    #5939
    Last edited by content22207; 08-30-2011 at 06:36 PM.

  9. #109
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by content22207 View Post
    Actually Volvo was the lead partner on the B280 redesign.
    So AMC bought it from Volvo, or from Renault?

    Farrar
    3.0L, automatic, carbureted

  10. #110
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    Renault was calling AMC's shots by then. They had already pretty badly screwed up the company. Other than the Alliance, AMC was reduced to building rebadged Renault products that didn't sell worth a damn. Le Car? Give me a break.

    Renault was a partner in the Douvrin plant. Volvo engineers did the redesign work (that's what members of Volvo forums claim).

    Bill Robertson
    #5939
    Last edited by content22207; 08-30-2011 at 06:44 PM.

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