Carb Conversion "Kits" ETA March-April 2016

[content22207_2]

Anybody who has ever adjusted a hose spigot knows the difference between high pressure and low pressure.

When you want to blast spider webs off the side of the house, you open the spigot all the way to get high pressure out of the hose.

When you want to water your tomato garden, you open the spigot just a little bit so you don't beat the poor plants to death.

This isn't rocket science....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Let's go ahead now and place these things into their proper context from the very patents you cited, shall we?


Speaking of patently obvious, Bill's thoughts about high pressure fuel systems are not unique. For example:

U.S. Patent 6,264,437 granted 7/24/2001
col. 2, lines 7 - 10

This is a description of a potential failure within a fluid pump for when it malfunctions and delivers excess pressure. The description of fire was in relation to the application of a Fuel Injection system, and again is cited problem with the pump itself being the cause of the issue, and not the Fuel Injection system itself.

https://www.google.com/patents/US6264437




U.S. Patent 5,437,255 granted 8/1/1995
col. 2, lines 41 - 57

With ANY type of a collision there is of course the concern of fuel systems rupturing, no matter what the system. This is merely an abstract idea, and given the design of the DMC-12 as well as other vehicles which purposefully isolate and protect their fuel lines to avoid any such rupturing problems, it is a moot point. Likewise a "high pressure fuel line" is merely one example given. This does not:
Rule out low-pressure fuel injection/delivery system lines at all.
Give specific measurements to clearly define the term "high pressure".
Give specific clarifications and/or precise definitions as to what type of fuel is being used. I.e. Gasoline, Diesel, Alcohol, et al.


Compared to a carburetor, 65 PSI for K-Jetronic or even 35 PSI for EFI are both relatively higher than a carburetor, certainly. However, in comparison to Diesel fuel which can range betweem 1,000 to 15,000 PSI, K-Jetronic would actually be a low-pressure fuel line.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5437255



U.S. Patent 4,125,101 granted 11/14/1978
col. 3, lines 41 - 60

Yet AGAIN we are reading the abstract detailing the potential malfunctioning of a system. Furthermore, this details specific problems with rubber hoses and "higher pressures". Aside from again having NO clear guidelines of what these pressures might be, there is the problem that we're describing the use of rubber hoses with Fuel Injection. Other than the pickup hose and the overflow on the Accumulator to connect it to the return line in case of diaphram failure, we utilize metal and plastic lines instead of rubber. So again, moot point.

Using the wrong material for the job will cause a failure and is not the system's fault.

https://www.google.com/patents/US4125101



Lastly, Bosch's own U.S. Patent 4,227,501 describes:
col. 3, lines 18 - 24

This is a great one! You see, BOSCH is describing yet another abstract on malfunction rather than inherent danger. And BOSCH actually gives us specific measurements on fuel pressures here. You know why? Because this section of the patent is describing how K-Jetronic was specifically designed to avoid such a problem by bleeding off excess pressure to avoid the very problem you took out of context.

http://www.google.ch/patents/US4227501



Moral of the story: Replace your fuel lines & copper washers if uncertain about age or condition. The risk outweighs any cost savings.

Exactly! Same with old-ass rubber hoses on carburetors too.

[Ron]

Incorrect.

Full throttle enrichment valve is plumbed into the carb base, not the venturis. It responds to manifold vacuum *BELOW* the throttle plates. Full throttle enrichment valve literally is as far removed from the venturis as physically possible.

Venturis are *ABOVE* the throttle plates. They have a very important job to do, but it isn't manifold vacuum.
...

Bill Robertson
#5939
Although true as said, the above could be a bit misleading-
The enrichment (power valve) system enriches the fuel/air mixture in response to lower manifold vacuum (created by open throttle plates).

For a better (readable) look at the Motorcraft 2150 2V Carb, click HERE (http://grantorinosport.org/BubbaF250/carb/carb02b.html)

For related Power Valve Specifications, click HERE (http://tekatlarge.org/Ford-Motorcraft-2150-Power-Valve-Chart.php)

[Lou and "Boo"]

RON !!!!

It's been so long .....

I think Bill did state the lower vacuum to open the valve when he corrected my explanation. As I've always said, Bill DOES know what he is talking about when it comes to mechanics. That's for sure.

[content22207_2]

Although true as said, the above could be a bit misleading-

Post I corrected tied the full throttle enrichment valve to the venturis (specifically air flow through the venturis), not the throttle plates.

Full throttle enrichment valve has absolutely nothing to do with the venturis. If you could figure out some way to make the engine run with the venturi cluster pulled out altogether, full throttle enrichment valve would still work normally.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

RON !!!!

It's been so long .....

I think Bill did state the lower vacuum to open the valve when he corrected my explanation.


Busy as hell on top of a few medical issues....

Yeah, but it reads like they have nothing to do with power valve operation, to me...

[Lou and "Boo"]

Sorry for the erroneous Venturi reference,,, that was me. :(

Bill win set the "mechanical" facts straight I know. :)

[SamHill]

43560

Wow, DMCVegas, that's big of you. On behalf of everyone, thanks!

[Ron]

Post I corrected tied the full throttle enrichment valve to the venturis (specifically air flow through the venturis), not the throttle plates.

Full throttle enrichment valve has absolutely nothing to do with the venturis. If you could figure out some way to make the engine run with the venturi cluster pulled out altogether, full throttle enrichment valve would still work normally.

Bill Robertson
#5939I'm not sure what you "corrected", but I basically agree with this.

...Deleting the cluster would leave us with an engine with one speed or rev up and blow, depending...LOL.
You'd have to do a little more modifying... Otherwise, it would basically leave us with a air metering unit. Maybe you are on to something here. I suggest you call it B-Jet ;-)

[content22207_2]

Yeah, but it reads like they have nothing to do with power valve operation, to me...

That is absolutely correct. If you could figure out a way to make the engine run with the venturi cluster pulled out altogether, full throttle valve would still work normally.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

full throttle valve would still work normally

With the caveat that the full throttle valve empties into the same wells as the metering jets, thence through the venturi cluster into the air stream just like idle to WOT.

The full throttle valve is basically like switching to larger jets on the fly.

It is not a separate circuit. Valve bypasses the jets, from the bottom of the same fuel bowl (it's located between them), then empties right back in on the other side.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

If you could figure out a way to make the engine run with the venturi cluster pulled out altogether, full throttle valve would still work normally.

Bill Robertson
#5939You can't. Not doing that alone. I rest my case.
(And here I thought I might be reading too much into your post!)

P.S. Please quit calling it a 'Full Throttle Valve' -- The throttle does not have to be in the full position for it to work. I'm sure you know that.

CYA!

[content22207_2]

43561

Don't get strung out by depressions on either side of the valve -- those are just sediment catch basins. They aren't connected to anything.

Underside:

43562

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

Robert,

The citations are out of context because all citations in any legal document are technically "out of context." You would lose every case you ever tried if you cited entire documents; you don't have unlimited time, you have page limits, and I have better things to do.

The general premise that Bill has repeatedly made is that high pressure fuel systems make for more dangerous leaks. All of the patents cited are consistent with this proposition and state so directly. Merely because you can establish that each of the citations relate to a particular application does not defeat their teachings as applied more generally (i.e., the reference need not be directed to a DMC-12 to be relevant as you suggest). Along those same lines, you need not have specific recitations of fuel pressures to understand the relationship to leaks.

Your presumption that the pickup hose and accumulator are the only locations of rubber hose on the DMC-12 is likewise incorrect and illustrates it must have been some time since you replaced your own fuel hoses.
I would recommend that you do so.

[Lou and "Boo"]

"Can't we all just get along?" -R. King

[Ron]

Robert,

The citations are out of context because all citations in any legal document are technically "out of context." You would lose every case you ever tried if you cited entire documents; you don't have unlimited time, you have page limits, and I have better things to do.

The general premise that Bill has repeatedly made is that high pressure fuel systems make for more dangerous leaks. All of the patents cited are consistent with this proposition and state so directly. Merely because you can establish that each of the citations relate to a particular application does not defeat their teachings as applied more generally (i.e., the reference need not be directed to a DMC-12 to be relevant as you suggest). Along those same lines, you need not have specific recitations of fuel pressures to understand the relationship to leaks.

Your presumption that the pickup hose and accumulator are the only locations of rubber hose on the DMC-12 is likewise incorrect and illustrates it must have been some time since you replaced your own fuel hoses.
I would recommend that you do so.
I think you guys should agree that:
1. High pressure is obviously more dangerous.
2. That's why the materials used in them are of higher rate/quality, making them equally (probably more) safe.
3. That partial citations/documentation can be used to prove most anything in the right hands.
E.G. Some of today's fuel systems deliver a 1000 (yes, thousand) times the pressure of some old systems -- One could "disprove" the idea by pointing out that there are not 1000s of times more fuel delivery fires, etc., relatively.
4. Robert is quite familiar with the fuel hoses.
5. Bill doesn't need any help tripping over his own ...;-)
6. People should leave Bill alone when he is correct and clear -- But he needs to learn to own up when not. Which would end 99% of "the problems"...
7. Probably,never happen :deviltail:

[Drive Stainless]

Explain #4, Ron. If he was familiar with the fuel hoses he would know that the pump supply and return are both rubber at the tank.

[content22207_2]

Why does everybody persist making a mess all over my thread?

Why don't you all go make a mess in your own threads?

If you all want to write me off as the dumbest person on the face of the planet, go ahead -- you are fully within your rights.

But a couple of facts *PERTINENT* to this thread remain:
- I can make a fully functional intake manifold from scratch
- I have rebuilt more 2100's than the rest of you all combined -- I know that carb better than the backs of my own hands
- Three owners have decided to ask me to help them carburete their cars before summer. They may live to regret their decision, but to the best of my knowledge they're not at that point yet

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

I didn't post to make a mess but to help others in my experiences mechanically and otherwise.

I do not regret going carb.

I am not messing up "your" thread. Are users now restricted from posting pertinent information and debates as to such in a forum another member happened to start? Wouldn't that undermine the entire forum mission?

I forgive you Bill even though you don't forgive me and you seem to change the facts of the past to suit your martyrdom I still think we just need to put the past away and move on.

[Ron]

Why does everybody persist making a mess all over my thread?I, for one, was trying to help (the community). You can't seem to see that everyone doesn't read or write the same way and go ballistic or snippy when someone says/asks most ANYTHING about your posts, regardless of intent. Or ignore it, like you did about the low pressure pump being supplied in your kits...
Maybe they are paying you back for the mess making you did in the past, since your attitude here has not been forgive and forget lately, as we all were led to believe it was going to be, this time, this round, this site.....


Why don't you all go make a mess in your own threads?
What happened to you saying that DMCToday was your site...:devil:


If you all want to write me off as the dumbest person on the face of the planet, go ahead -- you are fully within your rights.I don't think you are dumb. I think you are quite intelligent. But, you can be an egotistical ass#@!# when it comes to people asking questions or presenting a different (often correcting) view online...since you asked.


But a couple of facts *PERTINENT* to this thread remain:
- I can make a fully functional intake manifold from scratchWho said different???


- I have rebuilt more 2100's than the rest of you all combined -- I know that carb better than the backs of my own handsI doubt it -- I owned an alternator and carb rebuild shop for decades. Where do you think the huge pile of 2100s I offered Steve to give you when he and Alex was at my house came from. (He didn't even go look at them! ..did he not mention them??? Never mind...)


- Three owners have decided to ask me to help them carburete their cars before summer. They may live to regret their decision, but to the best of my knowledge they're not at that point yet

Bill Robertson
#5939Good luck to you all.

[Ron]

Explain #4, Ron. If he was familiar with the fuel hoses he would know that the pump supply and return are both rubber at the tank.Help me out here..I went back a ways to find the "assumption" and gave up...:)

[Lou and "Boo"]

Yes best of luck to ALL Delorean owners and if the carb guys got questions we are all here to help

[The Aviator]

what's the horsepower limit of the 2100?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andrew]

While I have been a DeLorean owner since 1998, I was out of the DeLorean forum scene for a few years between the early 2000's and 2012. Between college and law school, life was keeping me busy. Back when I purchased my first DeLorean, I found a picture of a carbureted PRV and asked Ed Bernstein about carburation options. However, Ed flatly, unambiguously, and incorrectly replied that the Peugeot / Volvo carbed manifolds would not bolt-up to a DeLorean PRV. At that time, I gave up on carbing my Delorean and spent a lot of time and money getting K-Jet working. When I started getting back into the community, I was pleasantly surprised to see how much advancement had been accomplished in terms of carburation options. Frankly it was the advancement in carburation options for DeLoreans that convinced me to take on a second project DeLorean for the purposes of restoration.

Via my junk yard sourced Peugeot 604 manifold and carbs along with a $45 mechanical fuel pump (and with the assistance of Google to translate some Renault service guides from French to English) I got 5052 running for less than the cost of a rebuilt fuel distributor. :-)

For some reason totally unknown to me, the attacks on carburation quickly turn into personal attacks on people who prefer carburation and those who carb their DeLoreans.

As the owner of both a carbed DeLorean and K-jet DeLorean one of the things I appreciate about my carbed Delorean most is the electrical simplicity. 5052's fuel system consists of mechanical fuel pump and a single electrical circuit with two connectors running to anti-diesel shut off valves on each carburetor. Thus my fuel system eliminates the need for the Lambda ECU, the Idle ECU, the Fuel Pump Relay, RPM Relay, Inertia Switch and Fuse 7.

Nobody can say that our engines weren't designed for carburation. In contrast, Peugeot and Renault were using the dual Solex system that now sits on 5052 before K-Lambda was on the market.

Finally, acknowledging the flaws in the DeLorean's design is in no way an indictment of the marque. Rather a frank recognition of the downfalls in areas such as the front end, electrical system and fuel system represents a recognition of reality. There were a lot of things the DeLorean / Lotus engineers did correctly, however there was room for improvement. Even the big three make mistakes, even in cars that were a great sales success i.e. the GM's 4100 engine, Ford's rollover prone Explorers of the 1990s...the list goes on and on.

[content22207_2]

If people have serious questions about carburetion, I am more than happy to answer them. This thread started as DeLorean specific, but I am more than happy to discuss other applications here as well.

If people want to make personal attacks, complain about my terminology, chase me from another forum, etc, I'd appreciate it if that bad behavior is taken elsewhere. You can start a different thread if you want, but please stop polluting this one.

Greg, James, and Steve have conducted themselves very politely, and as a result are on the cusp of receiving hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars of gratis labor, given willingly (Greg's and James' conversions were delivered this afternoon).

Good behavior clearly gets better results than bad behavior.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

If people have serious questions about carburetion, I am more than happy to answer them. This thread started as DeLorean specific, but I am more than happy to discuss other applications here as well.

If people want to make personal attacks, complain about my terminology, chase me from another forum, etc, I'd appreciate it if that bad behavior is taken elsewhere. You can start a different thread if you want, but please stop polluting this one.

Greg, James, and Steve have conducted themselves very politely, and as a result are on the cusp of receiving hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars of gratis labor, given willingly (Greg's and James' conversions were delivered this afternoon).

Good behavior clearly gets better results than bad behavior.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I'm very appreciative of your efforts, and I'm looking forward to getting my Delorean carb'd this summer :)

[DMCVegas]

For some reason totally unknown to me, the attacks on carburation quickly turn into personal attacks on people who prefer carburation and those who carb their DeLoreans.

There is some much needed clarification here.

The first thing to understand is that the thread you are reading here goes beyond what you are simply reading on your screen. So there are a good many things that a reader just are not privy to. The biggest thing of all is that you are reading an argument that has gone on not for a few weeks, but rather for years.

First and foremost is the fact that no one is "attacking" carburetion in it's theory, or most of all anyone who decides to modify their own DeLorean to run a carbureted fuel delivery system. That is important to keep in mind. I myself am actually a big supporter of carburetion. Especially for three big reasons:


It is a viable alternative in the unlikely case that K-Jetronic parts every become unavailable. Again, highly unlikely, but it's always good to have a "Plan B".
For owners that are on modest budgets, it is getting cars back onto the road.
Owner experience is everything. If it makes your car more enjoyable and enhaces your ownership experience, then why wouldn't you do it?


Along those lines as well, no one either is claiming that the PRV was never designed for carburetion. Assumptions like that are based upon accusations from years ago. Ed? He's long gone. Bill? He's been the source of a good deal of such misinformation such as that. All to simply prop himself up and to win arguments.

The thing here for myself isn't that I'm pro-carb or pro-fuel injection to pit one against the other. What I am however is pro-education. I want owners to be able to make properly education decisions about their cars, as much as I want them to be able to have access to the proper information they need in order to make things like a carburetor conversion as successful as it is safe.

Also, no one is denying any sort of flaws in the DeLorean DMC-12 automobile. If we did, we wouldn't even have sites like this or other threads which demonstrate ways to improve upon the car through our online collaborations. Again, that is just manufactured propaganda. Years past in these threads Bill would post his arguments against K-Jetronic, and whenever he would simply be questioned about anything (as you can see here), he would toss out the accusations against people such as myself that we were purists, or we just hated carbs, etc. Then eventually it broke-down into trolling with his saying things such as the car itself was stupid, or all sorts of things along those lines to attack the marque. Now as you can see he's back again, under a different screen name, and resorting again to name calling, and now we're getting into the martyrdom phase again. More to the point however is that when you start spreading misinformation, prepare to be taken to task.

But more important to the point here is that Bill has also been passing out bad information that could seriously hurt people. That is not acceptable. If I were to be attacking anything at all, it would be that kind of ignorance. Especially when Bill gets called out, and refuses to ever correct himself.

Personally, I'm a fuel-injection guy. The reason is simple: I grew up around it, and it's what I know. I prefer the more complicated systems because the benefit of them is that they offer more precise control and troubleshooting. They just require more understanding is all. It's what I am the most comfortable with.

But make no mistake, I fully support your decision to carburete your car, as do others. If you've had success with it, that's fantastic! But even more importantly, please stick around and help out. As more carburetor conversions spring up, we're going to need you, Lou, and others who have the necessary experience to help out others that either convert their cars, or wind up purchasing vehicles that have already been converted. The spreading of that information is what I have been pushing for, and precisely why Bill and I are fighting: I want you to have the info you need at your fingertips with no strings attached, and Bill wants to control it so he can personally distribute it and impose himself onto everyone.

So please, enjoy your car, and lend a hand to those who need your help.

[Lou and "Boo"]

If people have serious questions about carburetion, I am more than happy to answer them. This thread started as DeLorean specific, but I am more than happy to discuss other applications here as well.

If people want to make personal attacks, complain about my terminology, chase me from another forum, etc, I'd appreciate it if that bad behavior is taken elsewhere. You can start a different thread if you want, but please stop polluting this one.

Greg, James, and Steve have conducted themselves very politely, and as a result are on the cusp of receiving hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars of gratis labor, given willingly (Greg's and James' conversions were delivered this afternoon).

Good behavior clearly gets better results than bad behavior.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Not chasing you Bill. Here to help with the carb guys. Just doing my part for the carbed as well as non carbed Delorean community posting pertinent information in a relevant thread while answering questions from Delorean owners.

As was mentioned here earlier, "please stick around and help out."

You are welcome Bill. :)

[Drive Stainless]

The very first thing you said, Robert, is that this isn't just about what we see here in the thread; that it's about your war with Bill, which spans years, sadly. That admission is all we needed to hear.

Now take it elsewhere. This is not the venue to cultivate your vendetta.

[Rich_NYS]

The very first thing you said, Robert, is that this isn't just about what we see here in the thread; that it's about your war with Bill, which spans years, sadly. That admission is all we needed to hear.

I was thinking the same thing.

No pollution....

[content22207_2]

I just created a thread for off topic carburetion posts. In the future they can be made there rather than this thread.

Thank you in advance for keeping DMCTalk neat & tidy.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

The very first thing you said, Robert, is that this isn't just about what we see here in the thread; that it's about your war with Bill, which spans years, sadly. That admission is all we needed to hear.

Now take it elsewhere. This is not the venue to cultivate your vendetta.

No, it's not any sort of war or vendetta with Bill. It's about correcting ignorance and misinformation. Again with your little out of context quotes to twist the conversation.

I don't care about Bill, and as you failed to notice, I don't run the guy down on everything he says. He's smart, and he's got some knowledge on him. But he's also quite manipulative as well (he's now got you as a puppet fighting his battles just like all the other users he got banned), and just loves to not only start arguments, but win them at any cost. The reference to what has been going on for years isn't about Bill and myself having some sort of argument. It's about years and years of problems that Bill has had interacting with other people and the continuing pattern of abuse he has engaged in. Start doing searches on his username sans the "_2" addendum to disconnect himself from his already banned account here on DMCTalk.

You'll find evidence of years of feuds and trolling across not only Talk, but Today, and the DML itself where Bill has started fights with everyone he possibly could and worn out his welcome everywhere he's gone.

But again, although Bill is a serial shit-starter, it's not about him. It's about the lies he continues to spread in order to simply win arguments at any cost. And the cost is the damage to the marque.

If you have EVER had someone in a conversation tell you misinformation about your car and didn't like it, then you know what I'm talking about. I don't have a problem with carburetors, nor Bill selling kits. But what I do have a problem with are his incessant lies he makes up to try and bolster his flawed and failed arguments. Such as when it comes to trying to state that fuel injection is more of a fire hazard as a way to boost his sales through pitching a false sense of security to his buyers. So now do you want people to start researching our cars and wrongly think that they have some sort of a problem with catching on fire simply because one little man in North Carolina needed to spread a false rumor for his side business? Because by not saying something you're allowing that to happen.

If you want to boost respect for our cars, then you need to stop the misconceptions from spreading or even starting in the first place.

If you have a carburetor, that's perfectly fine. Even if it's one of Bill's. Please realize that doesn't reflect upon you, and that no one is fighting or looking down on you. If there is any sort of fight it is to keep you in the know by keeping you educated. But whenever bad information starts to get spread around, the person stating the falsehoods cannot possibly think that they're somehow immune to criticism. As such bad information will be challenged each time, and ignoring it and/or refusing to acknowledge the incorrectness doesn't validate it.

Same with selling these carbs. Bill has chosen to act as a vender, so it is perfectly acceptable for others to post their experiences with said vender, be them positive or negative. And don't tell me that we're supposed to somehow keep quiet about Bill's carburetor kits when I have seen product threads where people have just shit allover DMCH and John Hervey. They've gotten far worse than what Bill has, and yet I don't hear you or others sticking up for them like you're trying to do for Bill right now.

[content22207_2]

Please make off topic posts in the appropriate thread.

Thank you in advance for keeping DMCTalk neat & tidy.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

It is not off-topic at all, Bill. A question was asked, and I answered. The topic of which was indeed tied directly to this thread.

If the moderators see it differently, then it is up to their discretion to split threads as needed. Otherwise no one is stopping you from continuing on with the thread. Feel free to continue.

[Ron]

I just created a thread for off topic carburetion posts. In the future they can be made there rather than this thread.

Thank you in advance for keeping DMCTalk neat & tidy.

Bill Robertson
#5939


Please make off topic posts in the appropriate thread.

Thank you in advance for keeping DMCTalk neat & tidy.

Bill Robertson
#5939
I suggest you post a link to the thread (...solely for the purpose of messing up your thread).

[Ron]

While I have been a DeLorean owner since 1998, I was out of the DeLorean forum scene for a few years between the early 2000's and 2012. Between college and law school, life was keeping me busy. Back when I purchased my first DeLorean, I found a picture of a carbureted PRV and asked Ed Bernstein about carburation options. However, Ed flatly, unambiguously, and incorrectly replied that the Peugeot / Volvo carbed manifolds would not bolt-up to a DeLorean PRV. At that time, I gave up on carbing my Delorean and spent a lot of time and money getting K-Jet working. When I started getting back into the community, I was pleasantly surprised to see how much advancement had been accomplished in terms of carburation options. Frankly it was the advancement in carburation options for DeLoreans that convinced me to take on a second project DeLorean for the purposes of restoration.

Via my junk yard sourced Peugeot 604 manifold and carbs along with a $45 mechanical fuel pump (and with the assistance of Google to translate some Renault service guides from French to English) I got 5052 running for less than the cost of a rebuilt fuel distributor. :-)

For some reason totally unknown to me, the attacks on carburation quickly turn into personal attacks on people who prefer carburation and those who carb their DeLoreans.

As the owner of both a carbed DeLorean and K-jet DeLorean one of the things I appreciate about my carbed Delorean most is the electrical simplicity. 5052's fuel system consists of mechanical fuel pump and a single electrical circuit with two connectors running to anti-diesel shut off valves on each carburetor. Thus my fuel system eliminates the need for the Lambda ECU, the Idle ECU, the Fuel Pump Relay, RPM Relay, Inertia Switch and Fuse 7.

Nobody can say that our engines weren't designed for carburation. In contrast, Peugeot and Renault were using the dual Solex system that now sits on 5052 before K-Lambda was on the market.

Finally, acknowledging the flaws in the DeLorean's design is in no way an indictment of the marque. Rather a frank recognition of the downfalls in areas such as the front end, electrical system and fuel system represents a recognition of reality. There were a lot of things the DeLorean / Lotus engineers did correctly, however there was room for improvement. Even the big three make mistakes, even in cars that were a great sales success i.e. the GM's 4100 engine, Ford's rollover prone Explorers of the 1990s...the list goes on and on.
Great post!
...Robert's reply reflects any comments I would make concerning those carbers mentioned ( I assume Bill and "misguided minions"...;-)
...and you using "advancement" and carburation in the same sentence:devil:.

[content22207_2]

Received a PM from James. He got the UPS box OK and everything "looks nice" (since he didn't mention any damage I assume all pieces survived the trip intact).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

what's the horsepower limit of the 2100?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One common basic conversion is- Horsepower = (Air flow × 1.6) × 0.9
So 2100 (with max stock venturis IIRC) would be 424 X 1.6 x 0.9 = 610.56 HP
(A lot of things like ambient temp etc, etc are assumed here...)

[Lou and "Boo"]

Thank you Ron for answering that HP question!

[Pilot]

Got the kit, looks great.

[content22207_2]

Good news: Steve's conversion is boxed up and ready to ship.

Bad news: little girl who boxed up Steve's conversion charged two dollars more than the guys last week ($18.41).

The little UPS girl is scary officious, and I didn't want to get beat up, so I just paid it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Good news: Steve's conversion is boxed up and ready to ship.

Bad news: little girl who boxed up Steve's conversion charged two dollars more than the guys last week ($18.41).

The little UPS girl is scary officious, and I didn't want to get beat up, so I just paid it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hahaha :)

PM me where to send you money and I'll get it sent out ASAP.

Thanks!

[drewguillory]

I feel like leaving a simple customer review for anyone considering a carb kit:

When I first bought my car (from eBay), it was totally stock and ran fine. It became my daily driver. Over time, naturally, problems would arise and I'd put forth the money to repair them. At ONE point, the car ran BEAUTIFULLY.. had more power than I even thought possible in a Delorean. Not long after, more problems surfaced faster than my wallet could keep up. The car wouldn't start and also left me stranded on numerous occasions. Frustrating to say the least. Fed up, I dished out the money for a carb and haven't looked back since. My D fires up every time, and the constant fear of being stranded is long gone. It just simply WORKS. Going on a 2 or 3 hour trip isn't a big deal anymore.

So overall, my personal experience with Bill and his carb kit has been positive. I don't "take sides" or discriminate against anyone. Just here to share my experience, and enjoy my car. I want the same for you, regardless of what's in the engine bay. Thanks!

[Lou and "Boo"]

Nicely worded Drew. And although my dealings with Bill went sour, I feel the same about the reliability of my carb kit.

[Ron]

I feel like leaving a simple customer review for anyone considering a carb kit:

When I first bought my car (from eBay), it was totally stock and ran fine. It became my daily driver. Over time, naturally, problems would arise and I'd put forth the money to repair them. At ONE point, the car ran BEAUTIFULLY.. had more power than I even thought possible in a Delorean. Not long after, more problems surfaced faster than my wallet could keep up. The car wouldn't start and also left me stranded on numerous occasions. Frustrating to say the least. Fed up, I dished out the money for a carb and haven't looked back since. My D fires up every time, and the constant fear of being stranded is long gone. It just simply WORKS. Going on a 2 or 3 hour trip isn't a big deal anymore.
\
So overall, my personal experience with Bill and his carb kit has been positive. I don't "take sides" or discriminate against anyone. Just here to share my experience, and enjoy my car. I want the same for you, regardless of what's in the engine bay. Thanks!
Great post :thumbup2:

[content22207_2]

Just so everyone is clear:

To owners of automatic transmission cars:

The full throttle kickdown microswitch must be installed and adjusted so it gets tripped/closed by the throttle mechanism when the throttle plates are wide open. That is the only way the transmission knows to downshift into the next lower gear. If your microswitch is broken, missing, or not properly adjusted, your transmission will never downshift while passing etc.

This is a setup picture I sent Steve last week:

43698

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

If your microswitch is broken, missing, or not properly adjusted, your transmission will never downshift while passing etc.

This is true for K-Jet as well.

Automatic transmission depends upon a properly functioning and positioned microswitch to downshift (automatically) irrespective of fuel delivery.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

Just so everyone is clear:

To owners of automatic transmission cars:

The full throttle kickdown microswitch must be installed and adjusted so it gets tripped/closed by the throttle mechanism when the throttle plates are wide open.
That is the only way the transmission knows to downshift into the next lower gear.
Bill Robertson
#5939Not true...
If your microswitch is broken, missing, or not properly adjusted, your transmission will never downshift while passing etc.

Bill Robertson
#5939
Not true...


This is true for K-Jet as well.

Automatic transmission depends upon a properly functioning and positioned microswitch to downshift (automatically) irrespective of fuel delivery.

Bill Robertson
#5939
Not quite true...

Actually, the Kick Down Micro Switch (171) sends downshift requests to the Governor Computer at Wide Open Throttle only. Normal/part throttle downshifts are handled by "two generators" (actually one, dual wound...) internal to the GC.
Soooo, saying "never", "the only way", etc, W/O saying, "at full throttle/WOT", can be very misleading, IMHO.

[content22207_2]

If you want to operate your automatic transmission without a properly functioning or positioned kickdown microswitch, knock yourself out.

All I can do is make a bracket to hold the microswitch. From that point forward it's the owner's responsibility to position the microswitch and ensure its functionality.

Blaming me for a broken microswitch is like blaming me because you never used the toothbrush I provided, and now your teeth are rotting and your breath stinks.

There comes a point where owners need to start taking responsibility themselves.

I've done all I can.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Owners also need to take responsibility for setting their own RPM shift points (automatic transmission). I provide an attachment point on the throttle mechanism and a clevis to attach the shift point cable, but that's all I can do -- it's up to the owner to tighten or loosen the cable to get whatever shift points he wants:

43786

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Chad Krause posted a YouTube video that showed his car shifting around 2,500 RPM. That is way too low IMHO. If the new owner in Kansas hasn't adjusted the shift points higher, no wonder he's unhappy.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

If you want to operate your automatic transmission without a properly functioning or positioned kickdown microswitch, knock yourself out.

Chad Krause sold his car with a broken microswitch to an owner in Kansas who now is complaining because he has to downshift manually, blaming that on me (actually he's blaming it on the intake manifold I made, which makes no sense whatsoever -- the intake manifold is just a big hunk of aluminum).

All I can do is make a bracket to hold the microswitch. From that point forward it's the owner's responsibility to position the microswitch and ensure its functionality.

Blaming me for a broken microswitch is like blaming me because you never used the toothbrush I provided, and now your teeth are rotting and your breath stinks.

There comes a point where owners need to start taking responsibility themselves.

I've done all I can.

Bill Robertson
#5939
If you want to believe that, instead of thanking someone for correcting/clarifying your use of (false) absolutes, which can easily mislead people, and respond with BS like this instead, while believing that most here don't see the only thing you care about is your face saving ego, knock YOURSELF out.

[Ron]

Chad Krause posted a YouTube video that showed his car shifting around 2,500 RPM. That is way too low IMHO. If the new owner in Kansas hasn't adjusted the shift points higher, no wonder he's unhappy.

Bill Robertson
#5939
Perhaps the problem was not resolved because you told him-


The full throttle kickdown microswitch must be installed and adjusted so it gets tripped/closed by the throttle mechanism when the throttle plates are wide open. That is the only way the transmission knows to downshift into the next lower gear.

Bill Robertson
#5939

:umm:

[content22207_2]

Perhaps you should start a dedicated "How to Set Up and Tune an Auto Conversion" thread?

Posting info in this thread could well get lost as it grows.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I provide all the requisite pieces for an auto conversion. Obviously they can be set up successfully because Garen Martens reported way back in Post #293 that he is happy with his.

Del Silveira also reported being happy with his auto conversion (since sold). Same with Jim Edwards. Farrar never complained about automatic transmission aspects of his conversion (engine had several other problems, such as block rot and now coolant in the oil).

Of course Chad never said anything about being unhappy with his conversion either, other than conflicts with me personally (he threatened to melt his intake manifold into a solid blob of aluminum and post pics -- very mature), but the new owner is raising a ruckus....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I provide all the requisite pieces for an auto conversion.

Owner transfers the full throttle kickdown microswitch from his K-Jet installation (I provide the bracket). If his switch is broken or missing he can buy a new one here: http://store.delorean.com/p-6650-microswitch-with-flap.aspx

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

Perhaps you should start a dedicated "How to Set Up and Tune an Auto Conversion" thread?

Posting info in this thread could well get lost as it grows.

Bill Robertson
#5939No need, IF the "clevis" you claim to provide is located such that the resulting cable travel is the same as original -- Set up would be virtually the same as found in the manual. But, IMHO, you, as a vendor, should inform people of this, not tell them that "...the full throttle microswitch....is the only way the transmission knows to downshift" (or similar, three times, as you did).

Besides, your later elaborations on the subject (minus the ludicrous face saving BS) seem to cover things nicely -- All I was looking for, for the sake of fellow owners, in the first place.

[content22207_2]

If you bought a carb conversion off eBay, you would not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product.

If you bought carb conversion off Craigslist, you would not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product.

If you bought a carb conversion off Amazon for crying out loud, you would not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product.

Why then does everyone expect me to hold owners' hands and wipe their noses?

I provide annotated setup pictures, which is more than you would get from any other retailer.

I even pre-tune the carburetor, which definitely is more than you would get from any other retailer.

Have you all forgotten that I sell these things for materials cost only? That is one helluva bargain (my current welder thinks I am crazy for doing it). May I humbly suggest you all stop crying and complaining? If a complete, vetted, test driven, pre-tuned, conversion at cost isn't good enough, you can always buy your conversion from someone else....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Has anyone noticed that nearly every person crying and complaining about my carb conversions -- Robert, Ron, David, et al -- hasn't even bought one? That's like complaining that a restaurant isn't any good when you've never eaten there, or complaining that a movie is no good when you haven't watched it.

As bad as Louis is, at least he complains about something he actually bought.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

As bad as I am, I don't even complain about the carb setup at all. In fact, it works awesome. (Now that the power valve is back in.)

It was dealing with Bill's personality that was the downfall of our acquaintance. Ive always praised his mechanical knowledge, which I think is vast.

[Ron]

If you bought a carb conversion off eBay, you would not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product.

If you bought carb conversion off Craigslist, you would not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product.

If you bought a carb conversion off Amazon for crying out loud, you would not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product.

Why then does everyone expect me to hold owners' hands and wipe their noses?

I provide annotated setup pictures, which is more than you would get from any other retailer.

I even pre-tune the carburetor, which definitely is more than you would get from any other retailer.

Have you all forgotten that I sell these things for materials cost only? That is one helluva bargain (my current welder thinks I am crazy for doing it). May I humbly suggest you all stop crying and complaining? If a complete, vetted, test driven, pre-tuned, conversion at cost isn't good enough, you can always buy your conversion from someone else....

Bill Robertson
#5939


Has anyone noticed that nearly every person crying and complaining about my carb conversions -- Robert, Ron, David, et al -- hasn't even bought one? That's like complaining that a restaurant isn't any good when you've never eaten there, or complaining that a movie is no good when you haven't watched it.

As bad as Louis is, at least he complains about something he actually bought.

Bill Robertson
#5939
Since you asked-
WTH, Bill? I have not said anything against your carb conversions!
Nor do I disagree WRT "not expect anything more than safe delivery of the advertised product". Ironically, the problem(s) here, imho, is that you do give more...in particular, some of your 'information'.
The only crying I see is when someone asks you for/offers clarification, yours, wrapped with personal insults and false accusations (as in the above, for example).
Saying not to fill someones eyes/ears with BS is not expressing a desire for you to hold someones hand (or wipe their nose :rolleyes:

[content22207_2]

I did not realize you were planning to buy a carb conversion of your own. Apologies.

As with everyone else, I will send personalized annotated pictures of your particular manifold & carb, like this:

43928

Installation is actually simpler than K-Jet. You will be on the road in an hour or two (longest part of the procedure is removing K-Jet).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Pilot]

Thanks for all the help

[rtcraver]

Where are you now reference the carb intake kits?
I just had the engine totally rebuilt and my tech mentioned putting a 4 barrel on it... Problem is finding an intake to get away from K jet....

Thanks,

Tod Craver
VIN# 1815 (Automatic)

[email protected]

[content22207_2]

I make my own manifolds (with the assistance of a very conscientious aluminum welder -- I machine the pieces and he assembles them together):

44097

I had a small supply of Peugeot manifolds, but they are gone now:

44099

My experience has been a properly sized 2 barrel carburetor gives more than enough performance. Remember: our little engines are only 174 cubic inches (and they are low compression). I don't know any manufacturer that put a 4 barrel on such a small engine.

I use the same carb Ford put on its 171 inch Cologne V6 (1970's Mustang engine).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Steve's conversion is scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Greg's and James' conversions have already been received. Perhaps after one of them is installed they can post the experience.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Steve's conversion is scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Greg's and James' conversions have already been received. Perhaps after one of them is installed they can post the experience.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Sure. I'm going to be gone this weekend, but next weekend I'll try to install it :)

[MountainGoat]

Question: Proper storage of K-Jet parts.

What's the best way to make sure the fuel distributor and anything else that comes off are properly stored so they don't get 'gross'? Can I flush the gas out of the fuel dist. so it doesn't rot in there? If so, recommended procedure?

[content22207_2]

Sure. I'm going to be gone this weekend, but next weekend I'll try to install it :)

No rush. Several owners have already posted their experiences, but they are all 3-4 years old (or more: IIRC Sam and Garen were 2009 or 2010). You guys are the first new conversions since ~2013.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Where are you now reference the carb intake kits?
I just had the engine totally rebuilt and my tech mentioned putting a 4 barrel on it... Problem is finding an intake to get away from K jet....

Thanks,

Tod Craver
VIN# 1815 (Automatic)

[email protected]

I see you are only 30 miles away from Gainesville. I am scheduled to go to Byrne Heninger's house in August to help him with a couple of carb conversions -- you could probably drop by to see what they look like in person.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Sure. I'm going to be gone this weekend, but next weekend I'll try to install it :)

Two things you *MUST* have/do (Steve's car is an automatic):

1) Transfer over the full throttle kickdown microswitch and position it so the throttle mechanism closes the switch when the throttle plates are fully open (switch can be adjusted fore/aft). Ensure the switch is electrically sound and is attached to the automatic transmission computer.

2) Adjust the shift point cable (lower cable) to set how many RPM's the transmission shifts at. I would recommend at least 3,000 RPM. You can adjust the cable in and out by turning the hollow bolt (when you first attach the cable, position the hollow bolt halfway through the throttle cable bracket). If the hollow bolt doesn't give you enough adjustment, re-center it and pull the cable tighter through the clevis before securing it with the cable stop.

Chad Krause's old car had a malfunctioning full throttle microswitch and his shift point RPM's were very low. The new owner is apparently complaining about it on the other forum.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Two things you *MUST* have/do (Steve's car is an automatic):

1) Transfer over the full throttle kickdown microswitch and position it so the throttle mechanism closes the switch when the throttle plates are fully open (switch can be adjusted fore/aft). Ensure the switch is electrically sound and is attached to the automatic transmission computer.

2) Adjust the shift point cable (lower cable) to set how many RPM's the transmission shifts at. I would recommend at least 3,000 RPM. You can adjust the cable in and out by turning the hollow bolt (when you first attach the cable, position the hollow bolt halfway through the throttle cable bracket). If the hollow bolt doesn't give you enough adjustment, re-center it and pull the cable tighter through the clevis before securing it with the cable stop.

Chad Krause's old car had a malfunctioning full throttle microswitch and his shift point RPM's were very low. The new owner is apparently complaining about it on the other forum.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for reminding me -- I will be sure to do this when the time comes. :)

[Ron]

I just had the engine totally rebuilt and my tech mentioned putting a 4 barrel on it... Problem is finding an intake to get away from K jet....

Thanks,

Tod Craver
VIN# 1815 (Automatic)

[email protected]
A 4 barrel is way overkill...
The Ford/Autolite 2100 (2bbl) Bill uses will handle anything you could do to a D's block.:)

[Ron]

2) Adjust the shift point cable (lower cable) to set how many RPM's the transmission shifts at. I would recommend at least 3,000 RPM. You can adjust the cable in and out by turning the hollow bolt (when you first attach the cable, position the hollow bolt halfway through the throttle cable bracket). If the hollow bolt doesn't give you enough adjustment, re-center it and pull the cable tighter through the clevis before securing it with the cable stop.

Bill Robertson
#5939
$.02

Although it affects shift points, it is not really a "shift point cable" (as found on many older vehicles ...closer to later "TV cables", but not), different animals, fwiw.
Nor is it intended to be adjusted using a desired RPM...
The "governor control cable" has a specified clearance set at the governor end of the cable (rather than the throttle linkage end, which is adjusted IF you can't get within specs when adjusting it at the governor end).

44106

See WS Manual G:05:02 for details...

[dmruschell]

$.02

Although it affects shift points, it is not really a "shift point cable" (as found on many older vehicles ...closer to later "TV cables", but not), different animals, fwiw.
Nor is it intended to be adjusted using a desired RPM...
The "governor control cable" has a specified clearance set at the governor end of the cable (rather than the throttle linkage end, which is adjusted IF you can't get within specs when adjusting it at the governor end).

44106

See WS Manual G:05:02 for details...

Agreed.

Also, 3,000 is a pretty low RPM for a WOT shift. Performance cams don't even really start to work until 3,500rpms and factory redline is 6,500rpms.

[content22207_2]

$.02

Although it affects shift points, it is not really a "shift point cable" (as found on many older vehicles ...closer to later "TV cables", but not), different animals, fwiw.
Nor is it intended to be adjusted using a desired RPM...
The "governor control cable" has a specified clearance set at the governor end of the cable (rather than the throttle linkage end, which is adjusted IF you can't get within specs when adjusting it at the governor end).

44106

See WS Manual G:05:02 for details...

Darrin begs to differ (Post #32): http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13269-Carb-Conversion-quot-Kits-quot-ETA-March-April-2016&p=191637&viewfull=1#post191637

As Page G:01:02 of the Workshop Manual points out: "The gear driven governor is a low current alternator that produces current which varies with output shaft speed and throttle position [shift point cable in question, pulled by the throttle mechanism]. Depending on governor current and gear selector position, the computer will activate or de-activate one or both of the solenoid valves, thus providing a gear ratio change at the proper speed."

Bottom line: I provide adaptations for both shifting mechanisms with my automatic carb conversions: cable that gets pulled by the throttle mechanism and microswitch that gets closed when the throttle plates are fully open. Neither of these are typical on carbureted vehicles.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

Darrin begs to differ (Post #32): http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13269-Carb-Conversion-quot-Kits-quot-ETA-March-April-2016&p=191637&viewfull=1#post191637

As Page G:01:02 of the Workshop Manual points out: "The gear driven governor is a low current alternator that produces current which varies with output shaft speed and throttle position [shift point cable in question, pulled by the throttle mechanism]. Depending on governor current and gear selector position, the computer will activate or de-activate one or both of the solenoid valves, thus providing a gear ratio change at the proper speed."

Bottom line: I provide adaptations for both shifting mechanisms with my automatic carb conversions: cable that gets pulled by the throttle mechanism and microswitch that gets closed when the throttle plates are fully open. Neither of these are typical on carbureted vehicles.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Nothing I said disagrees with what Ron said. I followed the adjustment procedures when adjusting the cable on Ellon's car, but misread the clearance specification (which is why it shifts at 5k rpms). Adjusting it to proper specs is on my to do list. Only if, when properly adjusted, it's not shifting at the rpm that it should, should other adjustments be made.

Most carbureted vehicles I've come across have some kind of cable (or other linkage) for the transmission. Some aftermarket built transmissions only shift based on vacuum and lack the cable, but the OEM versions generally do. My Buick now shifts over 5,000rpms at WOT rather than around 4,000rpms. And again, I didn't adjust it based on rpm; I adjusted the cable based on clearance until the cable reaches the end of its travel.

[content22207_2]

The cable/rod you are talking about, in the bad old days of hydraulic valve body transmissions at least, is almost always for full throttle kickdown -- what the Renault transmission does electrically via the microswitch. (That cable/rod is typically optional BTW -- hydraulic pressure will kick the transmission down just fine without it if the RPM's are high enough). My PRV equipped Volvo has a cable in the same place as the DeLorean shift point cable, but it's for full throttle kickdown.

I've never encountered a hydraulic valve body transmission with a cable to adjust shift points themselves like the Renault unit. I've seen adjustable modulator valves and modulator valves with different color markings (to indicate shifting aggressiveness). Allison automatics have an adjustment inside the valve body itself to raise/lower shift points. But the shift point cable was a new one for me.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Of course if the shift point cable is going to cause too much unhappiness, I am more than willing to limit myself to manual conversions.

The carburetor has to be modified to accept two cables (throttle cable is standard -- shift point cable is the odd one). It is definitely easier for me to make single cable conversions.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

Darrin begs to differ (Post #32): http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13269-Carb-Conversion-quot-Kits-quot-ETA-March-April-2016&p=191637&viewfull=1#post191637

Not how I read it. Seems Darren nailed it here:
I think there's enough adjustment left to get it to 5,500, but I'm not sure if there will be any way (without modifying the electronics) to adjust beyond that.
I'd try setting it out of spec too, IF i was working on a modified engine (and use the info HERE (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?350-Automatic-Transmission-Governor) to modify the GC when it didn't work ;-).


As Page G:01:02 of the Workshop Manual points out: "The gear driven governor is a low current alternator that produces current which varies with output shaft speed and throttle position [shift point cable in question, pulled by the throttle mechanism]. Depending on governor current and gear selector position, the computer will activate or de-activate one or both of the solenoid valves, thus providing a gear ratio change at the proper speed."

Bottom line: I provide adaptations for both shifting mechanisms with my automatic carb conversions: cable that gets pulled by the throttle mechanism and microswitch that gets closed when the throttle plates are fully open. Neither of these are typical on carbureted vehicles.

Bill Robertson
#5939Inserting "[shift point cable in question, pulled by the throttle mechanism]" into the quote does not validate changing its name, nor change its true function.
If you don't like what the manual calls it and want to rename it, why don't you call it something that's not misleading and makes sense, instead of picking on yet another already in use (with it's own definition/function)? Might I suggest something like "Throttle Position Sensor Cable".:rolleyes:

[content22207_2]

Your semantic quibbling is becoming quite tiresome.

Call the cable whatever you want. Bottom line: I have made provision not only for the cable, but also for whatever you choose to call the electric switch that gets closed when the throttle plates are fully open. Every single device originally on a K-Jetted automatic car can be replicated on one of my carb conversions, if an owner chooses to attach them.

If an owners chooses not to attach these devices (or attaches them but chooses not to verify their correct operation), that is not my problem. I have made them available -- that is the most I can do.

Whatever Ron decides to call them....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

The cable/rod you are talking about, in the bad old days of hydraulic valve body transmissions at least, is almost always for full throttle kickdown -- what the Renault transmission does electrically via the microswitch. (That cable/rod is typically optional BTW -- hydraulic pressure will kick the transmission down just fine without it if the RPM's are high enough). My PRV equipped Volvo has a cable in the same place as the DeLorean shift point cable, but it's for full throttle kickdown.

I've never encountered a hydraulic valve body transmission with a cable to adjust shift points themselves like the Renault unit. I've seen adjustable modulator valves and modulator valves with different color markings (to indicate shifting aggressiveness). Allison automatics have an adjustment inside the valve body itself to raise/lower shift points. But the shift point cable was a new one for me.

Bill Robertson
#5939Thing is, in "the bad old days" there was a "shift" cable, "shift point" cable, or for some a "passing gear" cable (or rod), which was intended to be adjusted, depending on engine output, differential ratio, vehicle weight, owner's preference, etc. Then came "TV" (..."detent") cables. Not knowing the difference and adjusting these, as with the previous, caused a lot of problems, including transmission damage....why I offered clarification. On a D, the cable simply turns a rheostat for input to the GC, one of several inputs which the GC uses so IT can determine shift points -- as I said, a different animal.



Of course if the shift point cable is going to cause too much unhappiness, I am more than willing to limit myself to manual conversions.

The carburetor has to be modified to accept two cables (throttle cable is standard -- shift point cable is the odd one). It is definitely easier for me to make single cable conversions.

Bill Robertson
#5939It would be a lot better all around if you would call it what the freaking manual does...

[content22207_2]

If Ron wants to become the automatic carb conversion guru, knock himself out.

I might humbly suggest he actually buy one so he can at least advise from a position of first hand knowledge rather than simply quote from printed manuals....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I might humbly suggest he actually buy one so he can at least advise from a position of first hand knowledge

Or perhaps make his own....

For some reason the most vocal critics have absolutely zero sweat equity invested.

Kind of like criticizing D Day from the comfort of an arm chair.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

Your semantic quibbling is becoming quite tiresome.

Call the cable whatever you want. Bottom line: I have made provision not only for the cable, but also for whatever you choose to call the electric switch that gets closed when the throttle plates are fully open. Every single device originally on a K-Jetted automatic car can be replicated on one of my carb conversions, if an owner chooses to attach them.

If an owners chooses not to attach these devices (or attaches them but chooses not to verify their correct operation), that is not my problem. I have made them available -- that is the most I can do.

Whatever Ron decides to call them....

Bill Robertson
#5939Arguing semantics when things should obviously be understood, or when one word/phrase or another will not cause a problem is silly. (Although some do prefer to learn/share). It is not silly semantics when one name implies it is one thing, with its own set of properties/functions v/s another that can easily cause a problem for someone who knows the difference, and, you call it by the wrong name. It should not be adjusted (on a stock D) as you described. The POS has enough problems lol. Note the manual calls out what amounts to 0.4mm with only 0.1mm tolerance. Now that's picky for "no tension, no slack" lol.

It's not about you calling it the wrong thing per se. It's about the information you supply with a nice product, again! ...and calling it the wrong thing happens to reinforce the misinformation. Which you want to turn into me me being a semantic nazi, and save face for some reason when it's not needed, as usual.

GREAT! -- Ron has decided to call it what it is, as found in the manual.

[Ron]

If Ron wants to become the automatic carb conversion guru, knock himself out.

I might humbly suggest he actually buy one so he can at least advise from a position of first hand knowledge rather than simply quote from printed manuals....

Bill Robertson
#5939


Or perhaps make his own....

For some reason the most vocal critics have absolutely zero sweat equity invested.

Kind of like criticizing D Day from the comfort of an arm chair.

Bill Robertson
#5939Clutter the thread with BS all you want Bill. It's yours after all.
I'm not going to bite...

P.S. That would be an automatic transmission guru.

P.P.S. You are repeating the same silly crap again.

(P.P.P.S. Am I drumming up enough publicity for you? ..please send payment with "crappy injector" and hose you owe me, if so. ASAP)

[MountainGoat]

Hi guys;

So I was on vacation when my carb kit arrived. I was so eager to see it that I unboxed it at 5 AM after I got home -- I wasn't going to sleep with that waiting for a peek!

It came as 2 bundles in a huge box full of packing peanuts. One bundle had the carb and manifold itself, the other had "the rest" (fuel pump, tubes, etc.) It was somewhat overpackaged but (a) I know that's for insurance reasons and (b) better over than under!! Everything arrived in perfect condition.

I took everything out. The carb/manifold look really good and 'look like they belong', in that there is nothing odd or homespun looking about it IMO. They came bolted together and ready to be put on. Everything was very neatly organized and a part list was included, with each bag's contents referenced to the part list. It's way better organized than most commercially available assemble-it-yourself products, so it exceeded expectations.

My plan is to install it this coming weekend, and spend some time during the week examining the carb and how it works. My dad had taught me how to clean and rebuild Volkswagon beetle carbs but that's the extent of my carb experience (those are practically lawn-mowers! :D), so I'll make sure I give it all a good look-over. I read up a lot before committing to carb, but there's no substitute for actually having one in your hands.


So - thanks Bill for your work, I will keep posting as I go along :)

[content22207_2]

There should be a third box with the air filter assembly -- make sure you pull it out before throwing away the big shipping box.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

There should be a third box with the air filter assembly -- make sure you pull it out before throwing away the big shipping box.

Bill Robertson
#5939

The carb was in a box that was like 2 USPS boxes taped together, and the other was a bubble-wrap bundle that had the air filter assembly wrapped up with the bag of parts. So I've got that, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing left in the giant box ... I kinda swam around in the packing peanuts to be sure.... :)

I'm looking forward to getting this installed, but not looking forward to digging around in my gas tank again, lol.

[content22207_2]

Don't worry about cleaning the tank out. If the pickup filter at the base of the fuel pump assembly gets clogged it just unscrews and Autozone sells replacements for a couple of bucks.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Don't worry about cleaning the tank out. If the pickup filter at the base of the fuel pump assembly gets clogged it just unscrews and Autozone sells replacements for a couple of bucks.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yeah, it shouldn't need to be cleaned again -- I cleaned it about a year ago. Previous owner had let the gas in it sit for 2 - 4 years. Gas has sat in it about 6 months cause of my K-Jet problems but the stuff I put in was high octane and fingers-crossed it will work okay when I get it going again :) There's only a couple gallons in the tank, so I may just drain it while I'm in there to be safe.

[MountainGoat]

Hey guys;

I have started my carb conversion. I'm going to document it on a new thread, taking pictures as I go ...

Unfortunately, I have found my valley had a bunch of water and a little bit of coolant in it -- I need to figure out what's there, clean it up good, and see if I have a problem :( So I can't exactly finish my conversion til I figure that out. That's my task for tomorrow.


Bill, some questions for you ...

1. Regarding the fuel pump, I have a Special-T replacement pump which doesn't have a conventional boot (it has no boot at all... just sort of a rubber lid). I'm wondering what parts I need to order to work with your pump.

I'm guessing this:

http://store.delorean.com/p-6555-fuel-pump-sealing-ring-boot.aspx

this:

http://store.delorean.com/p-6563-hose-clamp.aspx

and maybe if I modify this it'll keep the rain out :

http://store.delorean.com/p-9083-fuel-pump-cover-seal.aspx

Let me know if that looks right to you :)


2. After removing all the core K-Jet stuff (Fuel dist, meter, manifold) I'm left with a lot of dangling fuel cables. Can I get rid of everything that has a fuel line going to it? Here's some pictures of things I'm wondering if I can get rid of ...


44295

44296

44297

Obviously I can get rid of the main fuel line coming from the old fuel pump, and the return line... anything else I can get rid of / should be careful of?

3. The fuel pump kit came with a "barbed bolt". I can't figure out where that thing goes. It looks like the baffle bolts on to the bolt that's already in the gas tank; does the fuel pump's 'open end' just stick in the tank?

Here's a picture of the barbed bolt I'm talking about...

44298

it's in the package on the lower left side.

[content22207_2]

Fuel pump carrier is designed to ride in a stock tank boot (P/N 101391). It's the same OD as a Bosch fuel pump. Low pressure pump itself is of course much smaller -- the carrier just allows it to sit in the larger boot hole, and it provides a fuel tight seal. Inside the carrier are 1/8 NPT male threads -- the carrier can be used to adapt all sorts of things to a tank boot (anything that screws onto 1/8 NPT threads).

Pull all the K-Jet stuff off -- CPR, frequency valve, etc. Everything you want to keep is valve covers and below. Most carb converters leave all the K-Jet plumbing under the car and simply bypass it with a new front to rear hose, routed along the driver's side of the frame (that 14' of 1/4" fuel line). Cap the ends of the K-Jet lines to keep crap out.

Barbed plug is for the return line hole in the tank boot. Just press it in (might need to lubricate the barbs on a brand new boot).

This is how I keep windshield plenum drain water out of my tank boot (a really old picture -- I replaced the rubber with a longer piece sometime back in the 2000's):

44307 44308

If your car was sitting outside, rain water in the intake valley is totally normal. This is what mine looks like after a good rain:

44310

Take care of the intake manifold hold down bolt holes and you'll be able to pop the intake manifold on & off whenever you want. Even if the holes get frigged there are ways to reinforce them (I've had manifolds on & off my car so many times that even Helicoils wear out -- I've moved up to replaceable brass inserts).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Remember that your car is an automatic: you need to transfer over the microswitch that shall not be named, attach it to the transmission computer, and adjust it so the throttle mechanism trips the switch when the throttle plates are fully open.

You also need to connect the cable from the transmission that shall not be named and adjust it so the transmission shifts at RPM's you like.

And connect the 3/16" modulator valve vacuum line we are allowed to talk about (believe it or not that fantastically thick factory hose is only 3/16" ID).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

Hey guys;

I have started my carb conversion. I'm going to document it on a new thread, taking pictures as I go ...

Unfortunately, I have found my valley had a bunch of water and a little bit of coolant in it -- I need to figure out what's there, clean it up good, and see if I have a problem :( So I can't exactly finish my conversion til I figure that out. That's my task for tomorrow.


Bill, some questions for you ...

1. Regarding the fuel pump, I have a Special-T replacement pump which doesn't have a conventional boot (it has no boot at all... just sort of a rubber lid). I'm wondering what parts I need to order to work with your pump.

I'm guessing this:

http://store.delorean.com/p-6555-fuel-pump-sealing-ring-boot.aspx

this:

http://store.delorean.com/p-6563-hose-clamp.aspx

and maybe if I modify this it'll keep the rain out :

http://store.delorean.com/p-9083-fuel-pump-cover-seal.aspx

Let me know if that looks right to you :)


2. After removing all the core K-Jet stuff (Fuel dist, meter, manifold) I'm left with a lot of dangling fuel cables. Can I get rid of everything that has a fuel line going to it? Here's some pictures of things I'm wondering if I can get rid of ...


44295

44296

44297

Obviously I can get rid of the main fuel line coming from the old fuel pump, and the return line... anything else I can get rid of / should be careful of?

3. The fuel pump kit came with a "barbed bolt". I can't figure out where that thing goes. It looks like the baffle bolts on to the bolt that's already in the gas tank; does the fuel pump's 'open end' just stick in the tank?

Here's a picture of the barbed bolt I'm talking about...

44298

it's in the package on the lower left side.

For the fuel setup, all you really need to do is get a regulator that will bring the PSI down do an acceptable level for carburetion (generally 5-7PSI). In the hot rodding community, these are fairly common. That would allow you to run your current fuel pump (and hard lines back to the engine compartment, assuming you mount the regulator in the engine compartment) to feed the carburetor.

[content22207_2]

Why in the world would anyone want to run a high amperage fuel pump, and potential problems of high pressure fuel between the pump and the regulator, when a low pressure pump draws 1.4 amps and only puts out ~6 PSI system wide?

Low pressure fuel pumps also are stock items at all parts houses, if you ever need to replace the pump (while on a trip for example). Speaking of which: fuel pumps I provide have a lifetime warranty at Autozone under my name and phone number -- if a reimburser ever needs to replace one he can get a free replacement.

Running a high pressure fuel pump jambed against a low pressure regulator is a bit like using a fire hose jambed against a regulator to run a fish tank. Makes no sense IMHO. Kind of like turning your oven to 500 degrees then propping an air conditioner in the doorway so your cookies don't burn.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

For the ultimate in low impact, may I humbly suggest a mechanical fuel pump:

44313

Only produces pressure when the engine is turning (no need for an RPM relay or inertia switch), flows proportionate to engine demand (at low RPM's the pump produces low flow, at high RPM's the pump produces high flow), and doesn't use a single amp of electricity.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

Why in the world would anyone want to run a high amperage fuel pump, and potential problems of high pressure fuel between the pump and the regulator, when a low pressure pump draws 1.4 amps and only puts out ~6 PSI system wide?

Low pressure fuel pumps also are stock items at all parts houses, if you ever need to replace the pump (while on a trip for example). Speaking of which: fuel pumps I provide have a lifetime warranty at Autozone under my name and phone number -- if a reimburser ever needs to replace one he can get a free replacement.

Running a high pressure fuel pump jambed against a low pressure regulator is a bit like using a fire hose jambed against a regulator to run a fish tank. Makes no sense IMHO. Kind of like turning your oven to 500 degrees then propping an air conditioner in the doorway so your cookies don't burn.

Bill Robertson
#5939

To run a DMCH combo pump with the built in sending unit and not have to worry about the fuel pump boot assembly.

The cars can obviously handle running those "high amperage" pumps because thousands do it on a regular basis.

It also means fewer modifications to the vehicle, which can simplify installation and make it easier to switch back to KJet or go EFI at some point in the future.

[content22207_2]

It also means fewer modifications to the vehicle, which can simplify installation and make it easier to switch back to KJet or go EFI at some point in the future.

Actually Houston's new pump assembly is a bigger modification than a fuel pump carrier in a factory style tank boot. Unscrew the hose clamp, pull out the carrier, side in a Bosch pump -- boom, back to stock.

Several owners have suffered pump failures with Houston's new unit. Wonder what the solution is if that happens while you're on a trip? I regularly drive more than a thousand miles from home -- that would be a tremendously expensive tow.

And I still don't see the point of pushing 75-100 PSI from the tank if you're just going to cut it down to less than 10% at the back of the car. Kind of like deer hunting with a bazooka. Yes, it works, but so does killing yard weeds with a flame thrower.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

Actually Houston's new pump assembly is a bigger modification than a fuel pump carrier in a factory style tank boot. Unscrew the hose clamp, pull out the carrier, side in a Bosch pump -- boom, back to stock.

Several owners have suffered pump failures with Houston's new unit. Wonder what the solution is if that happens while you're on a trip? I regularly drive more than a thousand miles from home -- that would be a tremendously expensive tow.

And I still don't see the point of pushing 75-100 PSI from the tank if you're just going to cut it down to less than 10% at the back of the car. Kind of like deer hunting with a bazooka. Yes, it works, but so does killing yard weeds with a flame thrower.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Dealing with the factory boot setup can be a pain.

Most failures I've heard about have been related to the check valve, and has been fixed by adding an external valve.

Just because you don't see why someone would want to do it doesn't mean that it may be the best solution for someone else. The mockery through wild analogies aren't necessary.

[content22207_2]

If any owners would like to run a mechanical fuel pump, and don't want to tap in new barbs themselves, just send me the pump and I'll be happy to do it.

I still recommend leaving the electric pump in the tank. Just unplug it. Mechanical pump can pull through a de-energized electric pump no problem. You need some way to interface a fuel line to the tank anyway, either a de-energized electric pump or a hose barb screwed into the carrier where the pump used to be.

Plus a de-energized electric pump can serve as a backup in case of mechanical pump failure (converse also is true: electric pump can push through a stationary -- failed -- mechanical pump diaphragm no problem. That's how I fill an empty bowl rather than cranking and cranking until enough fuel is drawn from the front of the car -- my electric pump is wired to an on/off switch under the knee pad).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

I actually suspect my KJet problems are fuel pump related so I have no attachments to my current pump. I'd rather run the electric pump provided by Bill, so I will get a replacement boot from DMCH.

The mechanical pump is interesting and might be a cool future enhancement, but for right now I just want to get the basic setup to run.

[content22207_2]

That would be my recommendation, not only for the fuel pump, but also for things such as plugging disused sensors in the coolant distribution pipe, rerouting or removing disused K-Jet wiring, even painting the engine compartment. Since it's so easy to pop the intake manifold off, there's no reason not to tackle other projects one at a time -- no need to do them all at once.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

there's no reason not to tackle other projects one at a time -- no need to do them all at once.

If your coolant hoses are old or suspect I would do them while the intake manifold is off (or soon after an inaugural test drive around the block).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

If your coolant hoses are old or suspect I would do them while the intake manifold is off (or soon after an inaugural test drive around the block).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yeah, I would assume something is leaking or in bad shape in there. There's definitely coolant in the valley. I was going to research tonight how to diagnose where it's coming from. I'm probably the first person in the valley since the car was assembled, and those hoses look quite old.

[content22207_2]

Could well be coming from the steel coolant return pipe. Those things are known to rust through. That pipe serves no purpose other than locating a barb on the backside of the engine to facilitate assembly line manufacture. My recommendation is to replace it with a contiguous length of hose.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

My intake valley with a contiguous heater core return hose (my pump back has a 3/4" barb so I made a brass fitting to transition from 5/8"):

44316

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Most failures I've heard about have been related to the check valve, and has been fixed by adding an external valve.

Three owners in this thread had their Houston combination pump fail: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13860-New-pump-sender-combo-failed-How-to-test

Apparently replacing the combo pump requires special pliers. And the pump itself comes from Houston/franchise (doesn't appear to be a parts house item).

Personally I'd hate to be 1,000 miles from home, have my pump die, wait for Houston to send a replacement, then find special pliers to install it.

Low pressure pumps I provide are stock items at all parts houses. Pump screws into a carrier that rides in an OEM tank boot. If the ever pump dies, simply unscrew it and screw in a replacement. If you get the new pump at Autozone you can get a free replacement under my name and phone number (pumps come with lifetime warranty when I buy them).

Owners can of course use a Houston combo pump regulated down to 6 PSI, but I really don't see any advantage.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[kbrown84]

Bill,
Would you be willing to sell just a manifold? I've already got everything else...
If so, whats the going rate?

Thanks,

[content22207_2]

I should have one more intake manifold from the last batch I had welded up. Let me see exactly how many Byrne wants next month (I'm pretty sure it's three). Rich wants one. That should leave one left.

IIRC they cost me right around $500 to make. I posted the cost earlier in this thread -- try around January-February.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[kbrown84]

Sent a PM, Bill. Thanks!

[Andrew]

Kolin, you should do a write up on your carb conversion! What manifold, carb and fuel pump options did you go with?
Were there any complications in the conversion and what are your thoughts regarding the results?

Thanks,

Andrew
4194
5052

[Rich_NYS]

Kolin, you should do a write up on your carb conversion! What manifold, carb and fuel pump options did you go with?
Were there any complications in the conversion and what are your thoughts regarding the results?

Thanks,

Andrew
4194
5052

+1

...I saw Kolin's video on Facebook and I'm interested to know about his setup.

[kbrown84]

Well, first off for fuel delivery....
I had attempted to use a bypass regulator and send a 5 psi line back, and return the rest to the tank...didnt quite work out so well. I ended up using an externally mounted Airtex low pressure pump, still have some work to do with the pickup/baffle assembly. Works well though, and I should be able to swap fuel pumps in about 5 minutes should the need arrive.

The manifold is a "Peugeot" manifold, although my source (Scotland) said it came from an Alpine, so I'm presuming they are the same style...I made a little block-off plate for the front carb...the manifold originally used a coolant line, so i cut that barb down flush with the manifold for aesthetics. I'm very picky about the look of things, I hope that is evident.

I scored a lot of 3 1.08 venturi Motorcraft 2100 carbs off a classic for forum for $80, that was nice...another $18 for a rebuild kit. I jetted my carb at .047. I cant remember the size of power valve at the moment. I was able to trace the original footprint of the solex carb from the manifold, and overlay a 2100 mounting gasket to make a template for a 1" carb spacer (https://m.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2137) and was able to use a drill press and a milling bit to recess the bolt head into the spacer to make a flush mounting surface for the 2100 carb...unfortunately I didn't think to take pics of that process.

I'm not quite done with the hose routing...I'm considering a blue anodized catch can, that way I'm not dumping oil vapors back into the manifold...

The throttle bracket is literally $2.50 worth of hardware from Lowe's, nothing really special. I'm still working on the choke apparatus...I wanted a manual choke instead of an auto or electric, personal preference. I'll make a spreadsheet of costs involved and post later...

Thanks for your interest, guys...and thanks to the guys that have already done this and helped me along the way... Steve Rice, Chad Krause... and of course to my local buds Jason Sharkey and Rick Vermillion (mainly for not laughing at me to my face for wanting to do this!)

I'll try to answer any questions if there are any!

465494655046551

[Drive Stainless]

Well, first off for fuel delivery....
I had attempted to use a bypass regulator and send a 5 psi line back, and return the rest to the tank...didnt quite work out so well. I ended up using an externally mounted Airtex low pressure pump, still have some work to do with the pickup/baffle assembly. Works well though, and I should be able to swap fuel pumps in about 5 minutes should the need arrive.

The manifold is a "Peugeot" manifold, although my source (Scotland) said it came from an Alpine, so I'm presuming they are the same style...I made a little block-off plate for the front carb...the manifold originally used a coolant line, so i cut that barb down flush with the manifold for aesthetics. I'm very picky about the look of things, I hope that is evident.

I scored a lot of 3 1.08 venturi Motorcraft 2100 carbs off a classic for forum for $80, that was nice...another $18 for a rebuild kit. I jetted my carb at .047. I cant remember the size of power valve at the moment. I was able to trace the original footprint of the solex carb from the manifold, and overlay a 2100 mounting gasket to make a template for a 1" carb spacer (https://m.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2137) and was able to use a drill press and a milling bit to recess the bolt head into the spacer to make a flush mounting surface for the 2100 carb...unfortunately I didn't think to take pics of that process.

I'm not quite done with the hose routing...I'm considering a blue anodized catch can, that way I'm not dumping oil vapors back into the manifold...

The throttle bracket is literally $2.50 worth of hardware from Lowe's, nothing really special. I'm still working on the choke apparatus...I wanted a manual choke instead of an auto or electric, personal preference. I'll make a spreadsheet of costs involved and post later...

Thanks for your interest, guys...and thanks to the guys that have already done this and helped me along the way... Steve Rice, Chad Krause... and of course to my local buds Jason Sharkey and Rick Vermillion (mainly for not laughing at me to my face for wanting to do this!)

I'll try to answer any questions if there are any!



Nice, clean install!

[Ron]

I'm very picky about the look of things, I hope that is evident.
:thumbup:

[Rich_NYS]

Looking good!

[DMC-81]

Looking good!

+1 Nice and clean! :thumbup:

[MountainGoat]

Hey Bill (or anyone else who knows);

The fuel pump you provide in your kit doesn't seem to come with a filter that goes on the tank end of it. There's the soup-can baffle which I installed in my tank, but do I need to put a filter on the tank end of the pump?

Attached is a picture of what I'm talking about

47326

[Farrar]

It should look something like this.

47352

[MountainGoat]

It should look something like this.

Yeah, that's exactly what it looks like -- no filter on the bottom. Thanks!! :)

[Farrar]

no filter on the bottom.

Incorrect. That thing you see that says "300M" is a filter. 300M = 300 microns.

[MountainGoat]

Incorrect. That thing you see that says "300M" is a filter. 300M = 300 microns.

AH! Okay, its just a filter that looks different than the old style one. It looks like my pump has one of those on it (which is why I originally said "no filter" because I thought that was just part of the pump) so nothing to worry about. Thanks for the clarification :)

[Farrar]

Yep. It's just a different style of filter.

Happy to help. :)

[Bob635]

Bill,

Glad to hear that you are back in the "carb" game. I think that this is an important option for people who can not afford to maintain K Jet or simply want something simpler.

Hope you can dyno test the single plane vs the dual plane manifold. This would be fascinating to have specific D numbers.
IF only one of the hot rod magazines would sponsor an issue on aftermarket equipment for the D engine (and other cars) that would be very interesting.

Considering how common this engine was, it would seem that some hot rod magazine in the EU would have done this in the past, but I am not aware of any articles on this engine. Perhaps some list members know
of such testing, especially on the early carberated PRVs.

Again, glad to hear that you are back. I am also working on 2 full size power window kits. One is going into the "Dream DeLorean" under construction in Illinois. The other I will be selling.

Bob

[Andrew]

I have been meaning to have my Delorean dynoed. Im running a Peugeot 604 dual Solex system with HEI ignition and headers. Im also contemplating a set of cams. If I go that route, I will do a before and after dyno comparison.

[Birchy]

Hi all, am a new member from UK, have just bought a delorean which is very much a project, however the previous owner who did a lot to the car replaced the engine with another prv but with triple dellorto carbs, the car has an auto box, and I would much rather have a simple carburettor setup better suited to the auto. I fear the setup on currently is leaning towards performance, and I just want smooth and simple.
I have no desire to go back to injection, as all the parts are missing and lots been changed.

You guys over seem to have lots of info on such things, and I would appreciate some straight simple advice.

I have not driven the car and at present it will not run, it's trying to start, but as only just bought have not fully had time to evaluate yet, but looking at the setup, it seems way over complicated and not finished off correctly no throttle cable or auto box kickdown cable provision has been sorted out properly.

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.

[rickjames8]

Hi all, am a new member from UK, have just bought a delorean ... with triple dellorto carbs ... and I would much rather have a simple carburettor setup better suited to the auto.... I just want smooth and simple.

Hi Birchy!

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like a rather unique setup that you have there! Would you mind taking some photos?

It seems from the reading I've done, the best option is to pick up an older PRV manifold and match it with an Autolite 2150 carb. It's been done several times to the Delorean, which makes it easiest to get help and guidance with. I recently bought one of these manifolds, and I plan to use it if my K-Jet ever starts getting too time and money consuming. You're lucky that you're in the UK, as I think you guys get more French imports than we do in the USA, so your parts pool is likely larger. I found the going rate for one of these manifolds is about $200USD. Although one recently sold on eBay here for a lot more. I got mine for $200.

Your set up sounds interesting enough that I'd think you could find an interested buyer who IS looking for the performance, and would be willing to pay you enough for it to offset your conversion to a single carb.

I'd recommend starting a new thread in the Carb section here and see if people can identify what you have, give you an idea of what it's worth, and go from there.

There is a guy named Bill who seems to be the 'carb guy' here in the US who makes custom manifolds for use with the Autolite 2150's. He's more active on the other DMC forum, but I know he posts here from time to time. You can also find a lot of his tutorials on both sites, which have great information.

-Rick

[Dangermouse]

I think this is Birchy's engine



48083

the only carb'd car in the UK, I think

[Birchy]

Yes that is a pic of my engine, it was taken before installed by prev owner, I would prefer a simpler setup.this is a pic I have installed in car, the plate holding the throttle cable is not on now, cable is not currently attached.

[rickjames8]

Yes that is a pic of my engine,

That's a crazy set up. I've never seen triple 2BBLs in any configuration other than in a line, Pontiac style (with a little tip o' the hat to Johnny Z ;)) It looks like it's set up so that one venturi feeds each cyl? Must be a nightmare to keep in sync.

The only other triple carb I'd seen before was this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYCGKBHSQHo). Looks like it might be running a bit rich....

[Birchy]

Thanks for welcome, I am actually collecting the car in a few days, probably going to be a few months before I can make a start on any work.
Yes I agree with last post I am guessing this lot would be a challenge to make and keep running smoothly. Especially with an auto box car, as mine is. That is why I am seeking a simpler setup to install when I get to it. Then sell this setup once it's running. I have experience with twin dellortos on alfa gtvs I've owned and currently have a Lotus Eclat with them fitted, and they are bad enough to live With!
I have read a lot about someone called bill robertson, he seems to be doing a conversion kit, can anyone put me in touch via an email address.
I could then make direct contact and discuss a possibility of using one of his.

[rickjames8]

I have read a lot about someone called bill robertson, he seems to be doing a conversion kit, can anyone put me in touch via an email address.
I could then make direct contact and discuss a possibility of using one of his.

Yep, that's the Bill I was referring to. I am relatively new here, so I'm only going off some posts I've read, but there seems to have been some strong opinions here on various topics, and now Bill posts more on the DMCtoday.com forums. I think you could have an easy time reaching him there. I think I've even seen his number or email posted as well.

-Rick

[Bob635]

Bill,

Glad to see that you are back making these kits again.


Bob

[SamHill]

Bill,

Glad to see that you are back making these kits again.


Bob

Who are you talking to?

[OverlandMan]

Anyone got a spare kit they're looking to sell?

[Farrar]

Anyone got a spare kit they're looking to sell?

Do you have Bill's e-mail address?

[OverlandMan]

Do you have Bill's e-mail address?

Yes. Already emailed him. Waiting on follow-up reply. He doesn't have any 100% ready at the moment but sounds like he might be pretty close.

[Project Jiga-Watt]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, but not new to Deloreans.

I've owned #01223 going on 13 years now. Long story short, the car was stored for eight years (correctly) and after putting in new fluids, battery, and I opted to replace the fuel pump with DMCH's computerized pump/sender the K-Jet system actually fired right up with little to no choking. I still have a WUR issue since I can't put any throttle on it until I've let it idle for a good five minutes or so and once it's warm I can smell it running rich, but it idles right at 1000 RPM pretty smoothly (car's an automatic).

It's up on jack stands at the moment. I'm compiling my list of upgrades and fixes ranging from "safety and mechanically critical" to "purely cosmetic". One of those is the fact that although my K-Jet system is running now, it is still running the the original fuel lines, and I either need to rebuild or replace the WUR. New stainless lines are roughly $300 bucks, a new WUR is another $300 bucks. Should my cold start injector go that's $200, and the list of critical K-Jet components goes on.

The second thing I run into is the number of jobs that stack into each other or fall into the category of since you're already doing this then this part is now accessible so you can replace or upgrade this now, too. Namely, I'm going to replace all of the old rubber coolant lines that have been sitting dry for so long with silicone tubes. This includes the heater core lines running out of the hard line under the intake in the VOD. I've already replaced my water pump and main pipes under the intake with silicone hose 10 years ago, but I didn't do the heater lines.

Here are my carb questions:

1. If I'm going to go through the effort of having to remove the intake and K-Jet top end components anyway to properly replace my old crusty heater hoses for a complete overhaul of the coolant piping network, would it be a good time to do this switch since everything on top will be removed anyway?

2. Is using the mechanical fuel pump necessary or can the conversion be done while still utilizing the electric pump in the tank with the tank return line hooked up to the carburetor? Does the electric pump produce too much fuel pressure?

Should I convert, even though it is reversible, I have no intention of returning to the K-Jet system and since I know that the majority of the components are in good running order I can sell them as cores for rebuild to recoup some of the cost. I've been considering doing an EFI conversion, but overall the amount of custom fabrication work and new wiring with a new computer puts that conversion into the same price point of a complete K-Jet overhaul if not more so.

[opethmike]

You can use an electric pump. The pump you have in there now produces WAY too much pressure for a carb, something like 15 times too much.

You have two choices:

1. Get a low pressure fuel pump to replace the existing high pressure pump
2. Get a fuel pressure regulator (you'll need one that can go to the low pressures carbs use) and plumb that

I'm in the beginning stages of doing an engine swap (LS motor), for which I will use a carb. I'll be going with option 1 in my scenario.

[Project Jiga-Watt]

I had a feeling that was the case with the new pump since carbs rely on pretty much a trickle fuel supply from a mechanical pump. At the end of the day, it isn't much for me to just pull the mixture control unit for now to replace what I need. I've just done the removal, and install process three times, and it's tedious. If I didn't have to do it again, it would be too soon.

The motor has just shy of 80K miles on it. I barely put 10K on it before it took the long nap, but the oil gaskets were pretty much shot when I bought it. That being the case, I'll eventually do a power train pull in order to completely overhaul the gaskets on the engine, and while doing that upgrade the cams, port the heads, etc. to get a little more naturally aspirated juice out of the PRV.

I'm just putting the feelers out there for what the options are, and I really do like the simplicity of Bill's setup in the engine bay, but at the same time I am still considering the EFI option. In hindsight, I wish I had a 5-speed.

Good luck with your LS swap. If I had a 5-speed, I was considering what it would take to drop a 2011-2015 Mustang 3.7 V6 in.

[opethmike]

I've done an EFI conversion on my car. Very happy with the results, but it is a lot of work. If you're just looking to get the car running for now, the carb is the cheapest and fastest route to that goal.

[Farrar]

1. If I'm going to go through the effort of having to remove the intake and K-Jet top end components anyway to properly replace my old crusty heater hoses for a complete overhaul of the coolant piping network, would it be a good time to do this switch since everything on top will be removed anyway?

2. Is using the mechanical fuel pump necessary or can the conversion be done while still utilizing the electric pump in the tank with the tank return line hooked up to the carburetor? Does the electric pump produce too much fuel pressure?


Welcome to DMCTalk :)
For what it's worth, I am the owner of a DeLorean which has been carbureted since 2008, but I am no expert. Nonetheless I will try to answer your questions:

1. Yes, I believe that this will be a good time to change those hoses. Although removing & replacing a carb/manifold assembly is easier and less time-consuming than removing a K-Jet/manifold assembly with all of the accouterments attached, you might as well do it before you put the new manifold on to get that work out of the way.

2. Mechanical pump is not absolutely necessary, but the stock fuel pump sends too much pressure. In my experience, rigging up a low-pressure electrical pump is irksome: the low-pressure pumps are not submersible so you have to mount the pump elsewhere, and they have a disappointingly short service life. I did have an electric, low-pressure pump on #2613 for a number of years, and simply kept a spare fuel pump in the car with me. Twice I have changed the fuel pump on the side of the road. Other times the pump would die while the car was parked. Failure rate was unpredictable. I considered getting an EFI fuel pump (~40 PSI) and using a regulator with a return line, but my car started having other problems which led to a total engine replacement. #2613's new engine has a mechanical fuel pump, which has proven more reliable than the low-pressure electric fuel pumps I used to buy at Auto Zone/O'Reilly/Advance &c.

[Side note: At first I ran a completely new fuel line, but this was unnecessary: you can simply use one of your K-jet lines with a bit of hose at either end. #2613 now has this setup.]

Good luck with your conversion!

[Project Jiga-Watt]

I was actually planning on relocating the fuel filter into the engine compartment anyway. I was doing some reading and there are a number of options for bypass regulators that are designed to allow the use of an in tank EFI fuel pump for carbureted applications. I can plumb the return line directly into the existing one with no issue. I was going to make some AN6 stainless braid hoses for the fuel filter relocation anyway.

One of the other potential hiccups I just considered was the charcoal canister. While it may be different in other states, unfortunately Nevada still operates under a very archaic understanding of emissions equipment, and I must have all original factory emissions equipment installed and visibly in "working" condition, which would necessitate having the canister and vacuum lines all properly hooked up.

Also, do Bill's manifolds have vacuum ports for the brake booster and heater core valve, or are those re-routed through a T junction?

[Farrar]

One of the other potential hiccups I just considered was the charcoal canister. While it may be different in other states, unfortunately Nevada still operates under a very archaic understanding of emissions equipment, and I must have all original factory emissions equipment installed and visibly in "working" condition, which would necessitate having the canister and vacuum lines all properly hooked up.

Also, do Bill's manifolds have vacuum ports for the brake booster and heater core valve, or are those re-routed through a T junction?

Depending on which carburetor you use, there will be a purge port for a charcoal canister on it that you can use. Just make sure that Bill knows you have to use a charcoal canister.

Yes, Bill's manifolds have the correct number of vacuum ports. His manifolds even include a port for the automatics' vacuum modulator, but on a manual he simply uses a plug instead of a barb in that location.

[OverlandMan]

Depending on which carburetor you use, there will be a purge port for a charcoal canister on it that you can use. Just make sure that Bill knows you have to use a charcoal canister.

Yes, Bill's manifolds have the correct number of vacuum ports. His manifolds even include a port for the automatics' vacuum modulator, but on a manual he simply uses a plug instead of a barb in that location.

My car is also an auto and I just recently converted it to carburation using one of Bill's turnkey kits. He literally sends you everything you'll need to convert a stock setup. The auto, like Farrar mentioned, requires some extra components on the conversion. Aside from the extra vacuum line, it also has a second cable under the throttle cable for the shift points. In addition, you will repurpose your auto trans kickdown microswitch from the old throttle spool to the new linkage.

The conversion is not difficult at all. Tear down and removal of all the K-Jet components takes almost as long as the installation. Also like Farrar mentioned, I repurposed the old K-Jet return line as my new supply line from the tank to the mechanical fuel pump now in the engine bay. You mentioned your car was already on jack-stands. If that's true, this would also be a good time to remove the rear line on the accumulator and plug it, should you decide on a carb setup. Doing this will ensure you don't start sucking air should the accumulator bladder fail. The repurposed return line has a "T" up in the frame and plugging this line is the easiest way to mitigate that.

Also while the car is on jackstands you could take that opportunity to remove the old K-Jet fuel filter, as it is not used on the new carb setup. My kit from Bill came with a fuel filter screwed into the carb directly and connects back to the fuel pump via a custom made metal fuel line with a flare on the filter side and a compression fitting on the pump side. The filter is a $6 common part from any major auto parts store. I bought a couple of spares this weekend. I've tried to update my resto blog with some of this information so feel free to check that out. It's linked in my signature box below.

[Ron]

I was actually planning on relocating the fuel filter into the engine compartment anyway.?
Check these out. $39.89 w/ filter:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-12s/overview/

[Farrar]

If the pump is small enough, you could mount it on the firewall nearer the fuel tank.

53800

[Farrar]

One of the other potential hiccups I just considered was the charcoal canister.

I had another thought about this.

Even if your chosen carburetor doesn't have a separate barb for a charcoal canister, it will have a barb for the spark advance hose. You could put a "T" fitting in the spark advance hose and install the resulting second hose to your charcoal canister's ''purge'' port.

[opethmike]

He literally sends you everything you'll need to convert a stock setup.

Including a case of cheerwine.

[dmc4087]

Are these kits still available? Or even just the manifold?

[Farrar]

Are these kits still available? Or even just the manifold?

I am not sure if Bill still visits DMCTalk. He may still get private messages here. Try sending him a direct message.

[stev1019]

How can I order one

[MountainGoat]

How can I order one

I have one for automatic transmissons (I believe it will also work with manuals, but the other way around is not true -- the auto trans one has an extra bracket). I'd be willing to sell it at a discount since I can't provide any support for it, but I believe it to be complete. PM me if interested!

[Ron]

I am not sure if Bill still visits DMCTalk. He may still get private messages here. Try sending him a direct message.Won't work - Bill has been permabanned from most D sites last I knew.
Try Facebook.

[Helirich]

Won't work - Bill has been permabanned from most D sites last I knew.
Try Facebook.

I've heard Bill's name here before. This is the first thread I've seen by him. What did he get banned for? Was he ripping people off?

[JBaker4981]

I've heard Bill's name here before. This is the first thread I've seen by him. What did he get banned for? Was he ripping people off?

Not at all. Honestly, Bill is very knowledgeable and a good source for Carb'ing a DeLorean. He CNCs an aluminum mounting bracket that is used to mount a carburetor to an intake manifold that he also provides in said kit. To my understanding, his kit comes with everything you need.

The reason he was banned varies but the admins had enough of him here and the thug board.

[Ron]

I've heard Bill's name here before. This is the first thread I've seen by him. What did he get banned for? Was he ripping people off?Duplicate account(s), the last time, IIRC.
Nothing related to rip offs here.

Kind of OT...and you should be asking him. :deviltail:

[stev1019]

Duplicate account(s), the last time, IIRC.
Nothing related to rip offs here.

Kind of OT...and you should be asking him. :deviltail:
I really want to get one of these how can I reah him i can not find a link on YouTube and I have no idea how to get hold of people on face book.

[82DMC12]

I message him on Facebook from time to time, he's very active in the DeLorean Technical Help group. Let me know if you want me to connect you with him if you can't do it yourself.

[Michael]

Bill will be where the biggest audience is.

67183

[JBaker4981]

I really want to get one of these how can I reah him i can not find a link on YouTube and I have no idea how to get hold of people on face book.

Create a Facebook account and then message him. This is him: https://www.facebook.com/content22207

[mtopping]

i am interested in a carb conversation kit if any are still available.