My first front end alignment went well... mostly

[rdarlington]

Last weekend I setup two jack stands at the front end of my car and ran a string around the back end of the car and then to the other jack stand

The idea was to get the string on the center line of the wheel axles so I could measure toe in/out at the front. My straight lines were made by pullin the string toward the car until it just touched the front end of the rear tire. At that point, the sting should be perfectly lined up with the rear tire and I can take measurements from the walls of the tire to the string and accurately set the toe in.

This worked great and for the first time since I got the car, my alignment is great.

The only catch is, the passenger side wheels appear to be pressed back toward the frame of the car by an inch more than they are on the drivers side. Is this normal? Something odd happen to the frame?

My setup is similar to what's in this image, only I'm using two jack stands and looping around the rear tires and coming back to the front to attach to the other stand.

http://digitalcartography.com/n0eq/astro/WheelAlign-01.jpg

What can cause this gross offset in wheel position?

-Bob

[David T]

Last weekend I setup two jack stands at the front end of my car and ran a string around the back end of the car and then to the other jack stand

The idea was to get the string on the center line of the wheel axles so I could measure toe in/out at the front. My straight lines were made by pullin the string toward the car until it just touched the front end of the rear tire. At that point, the sting should be perfectly lined up with the rear tire and I can take measurements from the walls of the tire to the string and accurately set the toe in.

This worked great and for the first time since I got the car, my alignment is great.

The only catch is, the passenger side wheels appear to be pressed back toward the frame of the car by an inch more than they are on the drivers side. Is this normal? Something odd happen to the frame?


My setup is similar to what's in this image, only I'm using two jack stands and looping around the rear tires and coming back to the front to attach to the other stand.

http://digitalcartography.com/n0eq/astro/WheelAlign-01.jpg

What can cause this gross offset in wheel position?

-Bob

This method is good enough to get you close but you really should have it checked over by a shop with more accurate equipment. If one side is "different", one way to find out what the difference is would be to take measurements on one side and then compare them to the other to figure out what is "different". You could also try swapping parts like the wheels. Or maybe just remove them and measure. It may not be off as much as you think and it is most likely the body that is not even. A more accurate manual method is to mark the centerline under the car and take all of your measurements from that. A professional alignment is not that expensive and once done properly lasts a long time. They will also dynamically balance your tires, you can't do that at home.

[Rich]

There a problem with the method you tried for aligning the fronts.

Taking two reference points from the rear tires/wheels to create a reference line for each of the fronts relies on the rears being aligned to the frame to begin with. So if the toe-in is not the same on both rears then you would get an inferred inboard-outboard offset of the fronts relative to those two string-lines as you report.

The string-line-from-the-rear-wheels method, to the extent it works at all, works with a solid-axle rear-drive setup, as with the van in that photo. On such cars the rear wheels have fixed (zero) toe-in and the strings are (kind of) parallel to the frame centerline as a result.

You did not say what makes you think the front alignment is now great. It can feel OK and still be out of spec regarding toe-in.

As noted by David T., get a baseline reading for the fronts and rears at a decent alignment shop. They can adjust the front toe-in while you're there. If they confirm that the rears are out of spec for toe-in then it's on to the TABs and shims.

This is basic stuff, not very tough to sort out.

[rdarlington]

This is basic stuff, not very tough to sort out.

I agree, it's pretty trivial, but there was an unexpected result.

I can see with my eyes that the passenger side wheel is farther into the wheel well than the drivers side by about an inch. This jives with my string method of alignment but never noticed till I was actually making measurements and had the string along side the tire.

I'm not doing this to cheap out. The impression I'm getting from both you guys is that this is frowned upon and leave it to a professional, etc, but it turns out I know what I'm doing :-) I know how to use a ruler.

-Bob

[DMCMW Dave]

I can see with my eyes that the passenger side wheel is farther into the wheel well than the drivers side by about an inch. This jives with my string method of alignment but never noticed till I was actually making measurements and had the string along side the tire.


An inch is a lot. . .That would imply something drastically wrong at the frame. If the trailing arm happens to be missing the shims or has a very bad bushing one rear could be toed in a lot, but if it's just in too far, but still pointing straight ahead, it would mean that the upper and lower links were somehow shortened or attached to the frame at the wrong point. Is there anything obvious in terms of bent parts? How many shims are installed on each trailing arm bushing?

Another thing that can happen although it's more common in the front, is that the sheet metal is not hung straight on the body and causing an illusion of being way out of line. But an inch is a lot.

I've seen a car with a horribly rusted frame have the wheel too far back in the opening, but not too far inward.

[rdarlington]

<snip>
I've seen a car with a horribly rusted frame have the wheel too far back in the opening, but not too far inward.

I'll check the number of shims this weekend. It'll be the excuse I need to install the air deflector retaining strip kit I bought a while ago.

No chance of rust on this one. Like you say, there's a good chance the sheet metal isn't hung exactly the same as it is on the other side and it's possible the rear passenger side tire has too much toe out which would cause my string to be farther away from the wheel than the drivers side.

Thanks!

-Bob

[Rich]

'm not doing this to cheap out. The impression I'm getting from both you guys is that this is frowned upon and leave it to a professional, etc, but it turns out I know what I'm doing :-) I know how to use a ruler.

Let's see what the data tell you about where your wheels are relative to the frame. Find the handiest reference points on the respective L/R sides of the frame near whichever wheels you are curious about and put that ruler to work measuring distance to wheels. While you are under there look for anything bent.

If the suspension pickup points are where they belong and the suspension arms/links are straight and OEM-style then everything should be symmetric within a fraction of an inch. Something is not adding up so far.

Had not noticed in your post that both front AND rear pass. side wheels reportedly are closer to the frame than the driver side F/R wheels both are. Not a good setup for Indy.

Will be curious to see what you turn up.

[louielouie2000]

The only catch is, the passenger side wheels appear to be pressed back toward the frame of the car by an inch more than they are on the drivers side. Is this normal? Something odd happen to the frame?

What can cause this gross offset in wheel position?

-Bob

When I sold my VIN 5252, the new owner reported the exact same thing when he went to get the car aligned after installing Eibach springs (the car was a chop & swap when I bought it). This baffled me because the car always tracked straight & handled beautifully. Since then, I've come to wonder if the lower control arm might be bent. I'll be interested to see what has caused your suspension discrepency, so I can pass it along to the current owner of 5252.

[David T]

I agree, it's pretty trivial, but there was an unexpected result.

I can see with my eyes that the passenger side wheel is farther into the wheel well than the drivers side by about an inch. This jives with my string method of alignment but never noticed till I was actually making measurements and had the string along side the tire.

I'm not doing this to cheap out. The impression I'm getting from both you guys is that this is frowned upon and leave it to a professional, etc, but it turns out I know what I'm doing :-) I know how to use a ruler.

-Bob

Unless you really know what you are doing and have some experience at it, you should leave doing an alignment to professionals with the proper equipment. There are just some things it doesn't pay to do. Either because it requires a certain level of expertise, special equipment, or both. Among the procedures you should have done professionally are:
Alignment, tire mounting and balancing
Glass replacement
A/C repair
Frame repair
That still leaves a LOT you can do yourself with minimal tools and training.

[rdarlington]

Unfortunately, I didn't get an alignment done after my first attempt. I waited until after replacing the front springs and tie rod ends 2 weeks ago. I had it done today. The last alignment I did was rushed and took about 5 minutes. I was close. Here's the results from Firestone:

Mine:
26639

And after Firestone was done with it:
26640

EDIT: I only had them do the front. I don't yet have my shims for the back. I'll eventually get down there again.

-Bob

[Nicholas R]

Unfortunately, I didn't get an alignment done after my first attempt. I waited until after replacing the front springs and tie rod ends 2 weeks ago. I had it done today. The last alignment I did was rushed and took about 5 minutes. I was close. Here's the results from Firestone:

Mine:
26639

And after Firestone was done with it:
26640

EDIT: I only had them do the front. I don't yet have my shims for the back. I'll eventually get down there again.

-Bob

I was going to say; all they adjusted was your front toe (not that theres much else you can adjust). Do you have adjustable lower control arms in the rear? Otherwise your camber isn't adjustable either.

[rdarlington]

I was going to say; all they adjusted was your front toe (not that theres much else you can adjust). Do you have adjustable lower control arms in the rear? Otherwise your camber isn't adjustable either.

Just front toe. No adjustable lower control arms in the rear. While my string & jack stand alignment method may not be perfect, I will say that my steering wheel was straighter before I had Firestone do their work. Not by much though.

One annoying thing they did was inflate my tires from 23 PSI to 30, but there are worse things they could've done. I didn't think to tell them not to. There were so many other things I was going over with them that I just forgot about it.

-Bob

[David T]

Just front toe. No adjustable lower control arms in the rear. While my string & jack stand alignment method may not be perfect, I will say that my steering wheel was straighter before I had Firestone do their work. Not by much though.

One annoying thing they did was inflate my tires from 23 PSI to 30, but there are worse things they could've done. I didn't think to tell them not to. There were so many other things I was going over with them that I just forgot about it.

-Bob

One of the things to be done during an alignment is to "center" the steering wheel. After a proper alignment the car should go straight, the steering wheel should be centered, the car should stop straight and there should be no looseness in the steering. They should have done the rear also while it was already on the rack. A Delorean is a really simple car to set up. All you have are the front toe and the rear thrust angle. Anything else out of spec means something worn or bent. The shop should have some shims on hand or they can be made on the spot for the rear. When checking the rear they should also make sure the Tab's are not bent.

[rdarlington]

One of the things to be done during an alignment is to "center" the steering wheel. After a proper alignment the car should go straight, the steering wheel should be centered, the car should stop straight and there should be no looseness in the steering. They should have done the rear also while it was already on the rack. A Delorean is a really simple car to set up. All you have are the front toe and the rear thrust angle. Anything else out of spec means something worn or bent. The shop should have some shims on hand or they can be made on the spot for the rear. When checking the rear they should also make sure the Tab's are not bent.

I told them to not go near the rear. I have the shims on order from DMCH and my dust shields were on. I already twisted one of the studs off (DMCH replaced it at no charge) and didn't want to deal with that until I have the right shims in hand. Lifetime so I can go back anytime.

-Bob