General Farrar's car blog [Archive] - Page 2 - DMCTalk Forum

content22207

08-20-2011, 08:30 PM

Relax. I'm just saying there is a reason you don't have a series of brass fittings like Steve (and everyone else) -- I modeled your pickup exactly after mine.

You can mount the pump anywhere. The Loadstar school bus at my church has two pumps: one on the frame next to the tank (opposite side of the frame -- I had to drill a hole through it. Oh joy), and one in the engine compartment on the firewall:
4254 4255

See if Jim Franklin (JIMJAM) knows how to get up with Jeff Dickey -- Jeff mounted a squarish shaped pump somewhere up front, totally outside the tank.

Airtex 8012's are still available BTW from Advance. You can also buy them online from Summit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-21-2011, 12:36 AM

I didn't think you were trying to insult me, Bill. No worries. If I can't relax soon, I am going to take a complete break from the fuel pump problem and work on something else until I can come at it with a clear head.

Mounting the pump somewhere where I can get to it without lifting the car is, for me, the most important thing right now. Someone walked away with my floor jack during the move.

I will have to go exploring at the front of the car to find a suitable place to mount the pump. I realize that in theory I could mount it damn near anywhere, but I want it close enough to the tank to not have to worry about vapor-lock.

Farrar

content22207

08-21-2011, 09:39 AM

I want it close enough to the tank to not have to worry about vapor-lock.

Vapor lock was caused by cooler gasoline being pulled into a pump mounted on a hot engine (the gas would boil as it approached the pump, and you would end up pumping vapor rather than liquid). Since your gasoline is hotter in the tank than it is on the trip towards the back of the car, I don't think vapor lock will be a concern even with a pump mounted in the engine compartment (provided gas makes it out of the tank in the first place -- if it's hot enough to boil under however much vacuum the pump is sucking, then the system will vapor lock until it cools down).

You can pull though 1/4" fuel line hose OK (it won't collapse) -- I've pumped out tanks with fuel line pulled off the spool so I won't have to cut it shorter (at 15 feet).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-21-2011, 10:03 AM

Ah, so with an electric pump moun6ted away from the engine, I needn't worry about that -- this is good news.

If I still used the old steel fuel lines, perhaps I could mount the pump where the accumulator is ... I will have to do some exploring after I get a new floor jack.

Thanks,
Farrar

sean

08-21-2011, 10:14 AM

If I still used the old steel fuel lines, perhaps I could mount the pump where the accumulator is ... I will have to do some exploring after I get a new floor jack.

Thanks,
Farrar
better yet mount it near where the stock fuel filter is, better access.

Farrar

08-21-2011, 12:40 PM

better yet mount it near where the stock fuel filter is, better access.

Either way, don't I have to have the car off the ground 8 to 10 inches to gain access? Not my first choice, but then again there's not much extra space on this car!

Farrar

sean

08-21-2011, 12:45 PM

Either way, don't I have to have the car off the ground 8 to 10 inches to gain access? Not my first choice, but then again there's not much extra space on this car!

Farrar

I only suggested near the fuel filter since if you are doing it under the car it would be easier to get to from that location rather than the accumulator cubbyhole. BTW, why not mount it in the engine bay? If you are goning to install it so far down line near the filter or accumulate why not go a bit further and put it in the engine bay, way better access right?

content22207

08-21-2011, 12:51 PM

Or just leave the pump in the tank -- very easy access. I am repeatedly removing mine for show & tell (it seems like every new person I meet wants to see a tuna fish baffle in person). I can pop it out in less than a minute.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sean

08-21-2011, 12:53 PM

Or just leave the pump in the tank --

HA! I wonder if I had said leave it in the tank you would have said mount it in the engine bay. Good times :D

Farrar

08-21-2011, 12:59 PM

BTW, why not mount it in the engine bay?

Despite Bill's assurances, I would still be nervous about vapor-lock having the pump above the level of gasoline in the tank.

Or just leave the pump in the tank -- very easy access.

With the current pump installed, the access cover under the spare tire well will not close.

Would you like a video demonstration?

Farrar

content22207

08-21-2011, 01:02 PM

HA! I wonder if I had said leave it in the tank you would have said mount it in the engine bay. Good times :D

I'm not the one complaining about Airtex fuel pumps. Quite the opposite -- I am having excellent success with my own pump (as are all the other owners I have helped -- no one outside of Louisiana has experienced a pump failure). Farrar and Steve are the only ones having problems, which seems to indicate an environmental problem, ie: rust. Due to atmospheric moisture, things do rust at an accelerated pace down there. Metal coat hangers will rust hanging in your closet, for crying out loud (can I hear an "Amen," Farrar). If Farrar and Steve's ground connections are rusty, they are going to be putting excess stress on their pump motors.

Ever notice how quickly the steel components on Farrar's carburetor rusted (linkages, machine screws, etc)? That same effect is happening all over his car.

BTW: Farrar can put other manufacturers' pumps in his tank if he wants. I believe Steve is running a Spectra unit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-21-2011, 08:12 PM

So would there be any problem having the pump above the level of fuel in the tank? Or am I worrying unnecessarily?

Farrar

stevedmc

08-21-2011, 11:10 PM

I believe Steve is running a Spectra unit.

I'm currently running on the spare Airtex unit I had with me when I had my failure. Right now I've got some more important stuff to work on, but once my honey do list is caught up I plan on installing the Spectra unit.

ramblinmike

08-21-2011, 11:16 PM

So would there be any problem having the pump above the level of fuel in the tank? Or am I worrying unnecessarily?

Farrar

Cars do it all the time. '80s Volvos had their pumps on the outside of the tank. Late 80's fords did as well.

Farrar

08-22-2011, 09:51 AM

Cars do it all the time. '80s Volvos had their pumps on the outside of the tank. Late 80's fords did as well.

All right, then. In order to protect the fuel pump from rusting, I may just mount it in the engine compartment. Stuff in there is reasonably protected from the rain.

Might as well run a new fuel line while I'm at it.

Going to go shopping on Tuesday for a new jack. Since the D is so light, I guess I don't need a very heavy-duty one.

Farrar

Bitsyncmaster

08-22-2011, 10:35 AM

Going to go shopping on Tuesday for a new jack. Since the D is so light, I guess I don't need a very heavy-duty one.

Farrar

The back end is pretty heavy. I have a cheap one (1500 lbs) and a better one (2500 lbs) and it's pretty hard lifting the back end with the cheap one.

Farrar

08-22-2011, 10:39 AM

The back end is pretty heavy. I have a cheap one (1500 lbs) and a better one (2500 lbs) and it's pretty hard lifting the back end with the cheap one.

I am not looking at cheap ones -- with me under the car, I want good quality! The one I was looking at it rated for 2½ tons. I think that should be sufficient. And no, I am not shopping at Harbor Freight. ;)

My old floor jack was rated for ... I dunno, something heavy -- 5 or 6 tons, I think. That was great, especially since my Chrysler was heavier than the D. But the thing weighed probably 100 pounds. I nearly strained my back every time I had to pick it up, and even rolling it was a pain if the pavement was rough.

Farrar

sean

08-22-2011, 10:47 AM

I am not looking at cheap ones -- with me under the car, I want good quality! The one I was looking at it rated for 2½ tons. I think that should be sufficient. And no, I am not shopping at Harbor Freight. ;)

I dont care how good the floor jack is, you should NEVER be doing work under a car with just a floor jack holding the car up. Get a jack stand or two to rest the car on while you do your work. Heck, at least some blocks or wood.

Farrar

08-22-2011, 10:52 AM

I dont care how good the floor jack is, you should NEVER be doing work under a car with just a floor jack holding the car up.

I never do. But guess who is under the car positioning the jack stands...

Farrar

sean

08-22-2011, 11:20 AM

I never do. But guess who is under the car positioning the jack stands...

Farrar

Well putting jack stands under the car is pretty low risk, it just sounded like you were going to be doing some work under there with just a jack.

Farrar

08-22-2011, 11:36 AM

Well putting jack stands under the car is pretty low risk, it just sounded like you were going to be doing some work under there with just a jack.

Pretty low risk, true -- but if the jack fails while I am putting a jack stand under the car, I could end up with a rear tire on my arm. I do a lot of work on my own, so I don't want anything heavy falling on me which could pin me down unable to get help.

Farrar

sean

08-22-2011, 11:41 AM

Pretty low risk, true -- but if the jack fails while I am putting a jack stand under the car, I could end up with a rear tire on my arm. I do a lot of work on my own, so I don't want anything heavy falling on me which could pin me down unable to get help.

Farrar

I tell ya what I do, if the back end has to come up I'll typically take off at least one wheel. Once jacked up enough I slide that wheel under the engine/cradle. I do this as a redundant fail safe in the event a jack stand gets bumped out for whatever reason. If im working on the engine area then I just slide the tire forward a bit. I do this anytime I work in the front as well.

Farrar

08-22-2011, 11:48 AM

I tell ya what I do, if the back end has to come up I'll typically take off at least one wheel. Once jacked up enough I slide that wheel under the engine/cradle...

That sounds like a nice safety precaution. Also, with the rear wheels off I should have more room for my arms. Nice tip -- thanks!

Farrar

AdmiralSenn

08-22-2011, 06:59 PM

Get a set of ramps - even if the car isn't running you can still jack it up first and slide them under. It makes life SO MUCH EASIER and I don't have to worry about jack stands collapsing. Any time I'm underneath the car I use the ramps unless I'm working so far in that I have to raise it up super high.

Farrar

08-22-2011, 07:32 PM

Get a set of ramps - even if the car isn't running you can still jack it up first and slide them under.

This is what I do for the front -- jack the car up and put ramps under the wheels just like you said. The rear I still use jack-stands for, because I usually need to get the car up at least eight inches for me to work under there.

Farrar

AdmiralSenn

08-22-2011, 10:40 PM

Fair enough. I think my ramps are a little higher than average so it's not been an issue for me.

I feel a little less weird about doing things that way now, knowing someone else does it too!

Farrar

08-23-2011, 11:16 AM

Someone (I can't remember who -- sorry) mentioned that those low-pressure solenoid fuel pumps are better at pushing as opposed to pulling, since they're mostly used in situations where they're fed by gravity. This would seem to make mounting the fuel pump in the engine compartment a bad idea.

I haven't been underneath the car for a while, but I think there may be some free space above the LH trailing arm shield. That would be fairly low compared with the level of gasoline in the tank -- not exactly gravity-fed, I know ... but it would give me the opportunity to mount the pump sideways -- perhaps pulling/pushing fuel horizontally would be easier than pulling fuel up against gravity.

Thoughts?

Farrar

content22207

08-23-2011, 11:34 AM

Thoughts?

Just leave the pump in the tank.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-23-2011, 11:45 AM

With the current pump installed, the access cover under the spare tire well will not close.

I have now made the entire assembly as short as I can make it, and with the pickup screen sitting on the bottom of the tuna can, it is still too tall.

Just leave the pump in the tank.

Bill, are you being purposefully obtuse?

Farrar

content22207

08-23-2011, 11:58 AM

Spectra brand pumps are smaller (in every dimension) than your original Airtex unit -- you could try one of those.

Is your new Airtex pump itself the same size as an E8012S? If so, you should be able to install it in the same place (you may need to tap your carrier 1/4 NPT rather than adapt the pump to 1/8 threads.

IIRC, Steve went through a phase of relocating his pump elsewhere, but ultimately decided to go back to the tank -- perhaps he has some insights.

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc

08-23-2011, 12:17 PM

IIRC, Steve went through a phase of relocating his pump elsewhere, but ultimately decided to go back to the tank -- perhaps he has some insights.

I was thinking about relocating it, but after consideration I decided the stock fuel pump location is one of the few things DMC got right.

Farrar

08-23-2011, 12:21 PM

Spectra brand pumps are smaller (in every dimension) than your original Airtex unit -- you could try one of those.

So instead of trying to make my current Made In USA pump fit, I should buy a Made In China pump and throw away the $64 I spent on the Made In USA pump?

Is your new Airtex pump itself the same size as an E8012S?

No; it is slightly taller owing to the larger fittings at the top and bottom.

(you may need to tap your carrier 1/4 NPT

I can't; none of the hardware stores in my area sell NPT thread taps. This and a lack of time on my hands is why I decided to use a reducing coupling instead. The end of the coupling adds only about 1/8" height to the assembly (under the pump, inside the carrier, screwed into the pipe cap). A close nipple then screws into that reducing coupling to poke through the pipe cap at the bottom. A female/female coupling screws onto the close nipple sticking out of the pipe cap, and into the other side of that coupling is screwed the pickup screen. There are no bare threads showing; this is as short as it will get.

I hope that is clear; if not, I will try to take a picture when I get home tonight.

IIRC, Steve went through a phase of relocating his pump elsewhere, but ultimately decided to go back to the tank -- perhaps he has some insights.

He has never mentioned this to me.

I guess I am being punished for deviating from Bill's prescribed fuel pump assembly. What a shame; I thought my carma was pretty good.

Farrar

content22207

08-23-2011, 12:41 PM

I will not tolerate my army of minions deviating from lock step orthodoxy!

If you feel like running a new fuel line down the driver's side of the frame (you, John, and I are the only ones on the passenger side), there is plenty of room to mount a pump to the firewall:
4384

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-24-2011, 09:00 PM

If you feel like running a new fuel line down the driver's side of the frame (you, John, and I are the only ones on the passenger side), there is plenty of room to mount a pump to the firewall...

I am not sure there is enough room for another hose next to the giant a/c hose running along the frame -- even a 1/4" one. I will give it a try, though, when I can next raise the car.

One other question: How do I mount the fuel pump bracket without being able to hold a nut on the other side of the firewall?

Farrar

content22207

08-24-2011, 09:20 PM

There's an A/C hose on the passenger side too....

Every conversion from Steve forward has run the fuel line down the driver's side (Bob ran his through the frame because his car was already significantly disassembled). It's actually easier than the passenger side because you don't have to contend with the heater core pipes.

The pump would have to be mounted with a screw (big screw -- #12 or #14). It would probably be easiest turn the bracket so the screw is underneath the pump, like this:
4439

I'm only suggesting a driver's side fuel line because I don't know if you could make a sharp enough U turn to use your current fuel line. A/C and heater core lines would require the pump to be mounted on the driver's side of the boot.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-25-2011, 04:32 PM

I fake-mounted the bracket for the fuel pump to the firewall, and it, too hits the access panel. Bill, your car's body molds must have been different from mine.

What a waste. I guess I am going to have to throw away that $64 pump, hope that O'Reilly accepts a return on the other $64 pump I bought as a spare, then go somewhere else and see if I can buy a Spectra unit like Steven uses.

Rats. I was looking forward to using a higher-quality fuel pump.

Farrar

content22207

08-25-2011, 07:19 PM

Scoot it over further (behind the tank filler hose). I just test fitted an E8012S -- I can get it all the way behind the lip easily. You won't be able to put a hose clamp on it in that position, but you could attach the fuel line with the pump loose, then put it in the bracket with the fuel line already attached.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-25-2011, 11:12 PM

Scoot it over further (behind the tank filler hose). I just test fitted an E8012S -- I can get it all the way behind the lip easily.

If that's the case, why not just mount the bracket right-side up and stick the bolt through the fiberglass above the access cover? I will have another look tomorrow and see if that is possible.

... but not before dousing myself with Deet or something. The last time I was outside for five minutes I averaged a mosquito bite every minute!

Farrar

content22207

08-25-2011, 11:25 PM

If that's the case, why not just mount the bracket right-side up and stick the bolt through the fiberglass above the access cover? I will have another look tomorrow and see if that is possible.

Pump has to go against the firewall. Mounted against the lip it would protrude into the spare tire well.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-26-2011, 11:12 AM

Pump has to go against the firewall. Mounted against the lip it would protrude into the spare tire well.

I was thinking of installing the bracket backwards -- flat side toward the spare tire well.

Farrar

On another note, I know now why the thermostatic switch in our cooling system is called an "Otter-stat" or "Otter switch." It's named after the company that made it -- which is evidently still in business (http://www.ottercontrols.co.uk/)!

Farrar

Farrar

08-27-2011, 06:17 PM

Today, I went and bought an AutoZone Made In China fuel pump and installed it. Then I went to O'Reilly and returned my Made In U.S.A. fuel pump. The Made in China pump fits and runs. Now all I have to do is charge the battery and see if the car will start. (Currently, the battery reads less than 10v and the starter won't fire.)

It was so hot outside today that my foot felt like it was on fire after a few minutes. When I wondered what was happening, I realized that I was wearing a black shoe and standing in direct sunlight. My tools were almost too hot to touch after about thirty minutes. Now I know why people who can't afford a garage at least have a carport -- your tools won't blister your fingers if they're in the shade.

I have to take the car to a music video filming next Sunday. Looks like I will drive there sweating all the way!

Farrar

content22207

08-27-2011, 06:24 PM

On another note, I know now why the thermostatic switch in our cooling system is called an "Otter-stat" or "Otter switch." It's named after the company that made it -- which is evidently still in business (http://www.ottercontrols.co.uk/)!

I was chastised once by one of the supposed gurus of our community for calling that switch an "otterstat" instead of a "thermal switch," but as you can clearly see on Page M:18:10 of the Workshop Manual, that is what DMC itself called it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc

08-27-2011, 07:28 PM

The Made in China pump fits and runs.

Awesome. I still haven't installed my made in china pump yet. Perhaps I should wait and let you be the guinea pig.

Farrar

08-27-2011, 08:07 PM

I was chastised once by one of the supposed gurus of our community for calling that switch an "otterstat" instead of a "thermal switch," but as you can clearly see on Page M:18:10 of the Workshop Manual, that is what DMC itself called it.

So do Jaguar and Lotus. In fact, some Lotus vehicles of similar vintage to ours have both an "Otter switch" and a "fan fail" light and module.

Awesome. I still haven't installed my made in china pump yet. Perhaps I should wait and let you be the guinea pig.

My car is a guinea pig in many ways -- most notably, the first carbureted automatic DeLorean (June of 2008).

The Spectra pump has a 1/4" hose barb right on the top of the unit. No brass fitting required. I plan on making a fuel pump cover out of an appropriately-sized plastic lid, with a hole drilled in the middle for the fuel hose. Now the question is, which has a big enough lid: a giant tub of mayonnaise, perhaps? I don't eat mayonnaise...

Booster battery is inside now, charging. Should be able to fire up the vehicle tomorrow morning.

In other news, it's time for me to go to the hardware store and buy a bunch of stainless metric nuts. The rocker panels on my passenger side are all letting go, and I should probably replace the (seven!) seat nuts, too.

Farrar

The Home Depot's supply of metric stainless hardware evidently varies from location to location. The one near me had barely any, whereas I am sure that the one I went to on the Northshore had much more. Well, anyway ... I bought some nuts of varying size -- M5 and M6 -- in the hopes that I will be able to secure the rocker panels to the car. The right-hand rocker panel under the door seems to have only one place where it's held on with a stud and nut; the other places it is evidently suppose to clip on, and it's not holding to those clips. What's more, the plastic around which the stud is supposed to go is broken. I am hoping that I will be able to hold it on with a washer in place where the plastic is broken, but what am I supposed to do about those clips that no longer hold?

My door sills are the early style, and therefore held on with screws. Perhaps I will remove them and see if the top of those rocker panel clips are visible. If I can replace them with something more permanent, I'll gladly do it. Anyone else secured their rocker panels in some other fashion?

Farrar

Farrar

08-28-2011, 12:04 AM

Also, here is what I plan to do with my cooling fan circuit.

4567

Farrar

Murphy's Law strikes again: now I have a 9mm socket in between the right-hand fender and the body.

:frantic:

Farrar

sean

08-28-2011, 10:56 AM

Murphy's Law strikes again: now I have a 9mm socket in between the right-hand fender and the body.

:frantic:

Farrar

Ha! Damn you's Murphy!

Ron

08-28-2011, 02:08 PM

Also, here is what I plan to do with my cooling fan circuit.

Murphy's Law strikes again: now I have a 9mm socket in between the right-hand fender and the body.

Mr. Murphy changed his schematic :blackeye:, so if you don't want your light to work backwards, change the wire feeding the light to 87a.

Farrar

08-28-2011, 08:44 PM

Mr. Murphy changed his schematic :blackeye:, so if you don't want your light to work backwards, change the wire feeding the light to 87a.

Got it! :)

4591

Farrar

In other news, I think the greasy film on my windshield was definitely caused by some sort of Armor-All-type, petroleum-based product on the vinyl. A week or so ago I removed the glove box lid and it was so hot that I couldn't replace it. So the car sat for a while with a lot less vinyl on the passenger's side under the windshield versus the driver's side. And when I went outside today to clean the car a bit, I noticed a huge amount of greasy film on the driver's side and almost none on the passenger's side, except right by the A-pillar.

I bought a product from Meguiar's which is supposed to clean vinyl, as opposed to simply making it shiny, and used it liberally along with some microfiber towels to clean all of the vinyl inside the car, with the exception of the doors because -- have I mentioned this? -- it's hot outside. Then I was in cleaning mode, and I went ahead and cleaned and conditioned the seats as well. Then the glass. By the time I was done cleaning, there was no time left to try to start the car. :lol: And I didn't even get around to vacuuming...

While cleaning the dashboard, I noticed the crack at the corner of the glove box has grown. I have planned on buying a Houston replacement dash in the future, but it's not in my budget right now, so on goes the dash mat, even though it won't stay in place worth a damn.

More bad news for my wallet: the passenger-side rocker panel is barely hanging on at the front. That screw is rusted solid and the plastic which it is supposed to grip is broken. After that, going from front to back, the first clip is broken and the next few grip but allow the panel to sag. It looks like a Houston rocker panel is in my future, because with my luck if I remove the rocker panel it will break.

The car is also missing a nut which does not appear to be metric! -- While under the car, I noticed that the bolt that holds the "front fender stay" together with its two other companion pieces is missing its nut. I'd take it out to look at it but it is, of course, rusted in place. All I know is that a 5mm nut is too small and a 6mm nut is too big. So I am off to the hardware store again later this week, this time to find stainless SAE nuts, which I hope are in more plentiful supply than metric nuts.

Just for fun I bought every stainless M5 and M6 screw of less than 20mm in length that I could find at my local Home Depot; the access cover under the spare tire now has five new stainless screws holding it in place. Now I just have to source the remaining ones... by the way, whose idea was it to mix up 5mm and 6mm screws to hold that panel on? I would have picked one or the other; mixing the two just seems idiotic at that point.

New fuel pump has a hose barb built in to the top. Will have to think of a different idea for pump cover.

I've started wiring my new relay sockets. Although they are of similar design, their grooves and tongues don't fit the stock sockets, so I will have to replace every single relay socket in the compartment. I figured this, given my luck, which is why I ordered twelve of them. Also, I ordered 100 terminals along with a crimp tool, figuring it would take me a few tries to get my crimping technique down. It only took me four tries. :)

Farrar

Farrar

08-29-2011, 09:40 AM

Speaking of relays...

I will be adding three sockets to the relay compartment, in a space that was only designed to have one more. (A previous owner removed the blue "Fan Fail Module" socket before I bought the car.) However, there are a few relays/modules that I am not using, which I can remove and use their space for a new socket:

- HVAC Panel Resistor (red socket) - bypassed with a jumper wire
- Lambda relay - unused
- HVAC Panel Lights - bypassed with a jumper wire

The reason I don't need the Lambda relay socket is, of course, because I don't need a Lambda relay -- my car is carbureted. The reason I don't need the other two is because I am running LEDs in the HVAC panel. So it looks like all is well, space-wise. However, since I will be replacing all of the relay sockets, adding new ones while subtracting others, I am going to label them all.

More problematic is the fact that I have subtracted one circuit breaker from the cooling fan circuit, and will be replacing it with two circuit breakers. There are only two spots for circuit breakers back there, so I will have to think of some other way of mounting the two new ones for the fan circuit. Since the bracket behind the passenger's seat is not grounded like the one behind the driver's seat is, that gives me the option to, perhaps, simply put them where the old door lock module used to be. Ah, decisions, decisions...!

It will be a busy week: I have to do this electrical work before Sunday morning when the car is due for a video shoot!

Farrar

On another note, does anyone happen to know the size of size the screws that hold on the glove box lid? I appear to have misplaced those screws. :doh:

Farrar

New scheme for relay compartment, posted here in case I lose the piece of paper I wrote it on this morning.

Top row:
Fan Fail Bulb Relay 1 / Fan Fail Bulb Relay 2 / Starter Relay / Power Window Relay / Power Window Delay Module

Bottom row:
Cooling Fan Relay 1 / Cooling Fan Relay 2 / Courtesy Light Module / Blower Speed 4 Relay / Blower Speed 3 Relay / Hi Beam Relay / Low Beam Relay

Frustrated with the lack of stainless, metric, or stainless metric, hardware at the Home Depot and Lowe's, and the fact that the local Ace Hardware is never open when I am able to go there, I have ordered a whole bunch of hardware from McMaster-Carr.

Also some nylon hardware. Because it's hard to find ... and it gets humid down here, you know... :)

Farrar

content22207

08-29-2011, 08:12 PM

Use black nylon M5's to hold your various trunk panels down -- some day you'll be glad you did.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

08-29-2011, 08:21 PM

Use black nylon M5's to hold your various trunk panels down -- some day you'll be glad you did.

Oh yeah! Mine are some crazy mixture of M5s and M6s, so I ordered a big bag of each.

As fast as McMaster ships, I expect my order will be here before lunchtime Thursday.

Farrar

Bitsyncmaster

08-30-2011, 06:52 AM

Use black nylon M5's to hold your various trunk panels down -- some day you'll be glad you did.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Or use 10-32 stainless. They are a little smaller then the M5 so will probably never get stuck. I don't even use any no-seize.

Farrar

08-30-2011, 09:58 AM

Or use 10-32 stainless. They are a little smaller then the M5 so will probably never get stuck. I don't even use any no-seize.

Too late -- I've already ordered black nylon M5s and M6s. As I mentioned earlier, the rivnuts in Sparky's trunk are of two different sizes, plus the metal screws were eating into the fiberboard underneath the carpet.

(The carpet is currently removed, since I have ditched the spare tire in lieu of a toolbox... but I plan on having a spare tire eventually -- before my next big road trip, whenever that happens to be.)

I have one of those Brother label-printer things, and started putting labels on my new relay sockets last night. Those label-printers are awesome! I was able to reduce the size of the font to make everything intelligible in the small space available. 8)

I hope to get started on the relay/fuse compartment tonight.

Farrar

My time-delay module for the power windows arrived in the mail!!! Huzzah!

Farrar

Farrar

08-30-2011, 10:27 PM

A tiny bit of progress tonight, even though work ran late and stopped me from getting any time outside with the car.

4720

Farrar

sean

08-31-2011, 07:40 AM

I like it.

Farrar

08-31-2011, 10:55 AM

Thanks, Sean.

It just occurred to me looking at that photo that I should have put the labels on the bottom row upside down, since I will be looking at it from above. Oh well, it doesn't matter -- I can read upside down. :)

Someone did something very funky with my relay sockets before I bought the car: the ganged grounds are supposed to be black wire, but mine are black/red! Not only that, but some of the terminals appear to be fuse terminals, not relay terminals! What on earth?*

Oh well -- my plan was to replace any terminals which were questionable, anyway (I bought a roll of 100 relay terminals and the proper crimp tool for non-insulated terminals)... I will see if I can find where the black/red wire goes and if I can replace it with a black wire.

My guess is that some of the ground wires were compromised a while ago -- I have noticed some heat-shrink and/or electrical tape (ew!) applied on some other wires in the same area, probably where insulation got burned/melted away. Perhaps the ground wires were damaged and someone made up a quick fix with whatever they had available. If this is the case, then I expect that the black/red wire will be spliced in somewhere. If I can find that, I can replace the black/red with black and make things easier for myself in the future.

There's a wild marsh fire out in New Orleans East making the atmosphere very smoky whenever the wind picks up in my direction, so I can't get much work done outside. It looks like the rest of this project will have to wait until Saturday. Now I know why people have garages, even if they're not equipped with air handling.

Farrar

--
*Pun very much intended.

sean

08-31-2011, 10:59 AM

t just occurred to me looking at that photo that I should have put the labels on the bottom row upside down, since I will be looking at it from above. Oh well, it doesn't matter -- I can read upside down. :)

I doubt it will be that big a deal, its for sure a lot better than nothing at all.

stevedmc

08-31-2011, 12:00 PM

I have one of those Brother label-printer things, and started putting labels on my new relay sockets last night. Those label-printers are awesome! I was able to reduce the size of the font to make everything intelligible in the small space available.

YEAH, I've been thinking about replacing and labeling my relays for a while now. I'm not to cheap to spend money on relays but I'm too cheap to buy a label maker. Hint, hint.

Farrar

08-31-2011, 01:24 PM

YEAH, I've been thinking about replacing and labeling my relays for a while now. I'm not to cheap to spend money on relays but I'm too cheap to buy a label maker. Hint, hint.

If that music video thing works out (I still haven't heard back from the guy) I can make you some labels on Sunday.

Farrar

Bitsyncmaster

08-31-2011, 01:33 PM

Oh well -- my plan was to replace any terminals which were questionable, anyway (I bought a roll of 100 relay terminals and the proper crimp tool for non-insulated terminals)... I will see if I can find where the black/red wire goes and if I can replace it with a black wire.--
*Pun very much intended.

I hope you got the correct terminals. FYI: Most terminals come in parts for single circuit and are made with thicker metal and very high spring tension when mating. You would want the terminals for multi circuit connectors or you will never install and remove a relay without a 5 lb. hammer.

I use 42100-1 brass terminals. Digikey # A27935CT-ND

Farrar

08-31-2011, 01:42 PM

http://www.sherco-auto.com/images/rhp250c.jpg

This.

Bitsyncmaster

08-31-2011, 01:45 PM

http://www.sherco-auto.com/images/rhp250c.jpg

This.

That looks like mine. Stick five in a socket and make sure you can install and remove a relay.

If you don't need the center pin, leave it blank. Makes removal less of a problem.

Farrar

08-31-2011, 01:48 PM

That looks like mine. Stick five in a socket and make sure you can install and remove a relay.

If you don't need the center pin, leave it blank. Makes removal less of a problem.

I did test for "strength" but I also have relay pliers since I have thick fingers and thumbs.

Speaking of the center pin: why are there two grounds on the cooling fan relays? Can I use a four-pin relay for the cooling fans without ill effects?

Farrar

Bitsyncmaster

08-31-2011, 01:51 PM

I did test for "strength" but I also have relay pliers since I have thick fingers and thumbs.

Speaking of the center pin: why are there two grounds on the cooling fan relays? Can I use a four-pin relay for the cooling fans without ill effects?

Farrar

Yes the 4 pin relay will work. I don't know why they grounded the fan when not powered. Maybe it had something to do with the fan fail unit.

Farrar

08-31-2011, 01:55 PM

Thanks, Dave! :)

Farrar

Farrar

09-01-2011, 11:50 AM

Speaking of relays, I came across this online...

http://images.the12volt.com/12voltimages/relayremotestart.gif

Ten relays just for one feature!? Holy smokes! I think if I had to wire anything this complex I'd go insane. :lol:

Farrar

Farrar

09-02-2011, 12:08 AM

Was going to get some work done on the car, but then it rained... and someone offered me two Saints tickets for free. So instead of working on the D, I saw the Saints get clobbered by the Titans 25-6... from row 1 by the Saints bench at the Superdome.

Sometimes my life is so awesome I think it's a dream I don't want to wake from.

Farrar

sean

09-02-2011, 06:34 AM

Farrar

09-02-2011, 03:35 PM

Here it comes...

4769

I am really wishing I had replaced my trunk seal before now. :nervous:

Farrar

sean

09-02-2011, 03:42 PM

Here it comes...

4769

Yikes! Stay safe!

Farrar

09-02-2011, 03:48 PM

Yikes! Stay safe!

I'll do my best. I don't live in a flood-prone area, and the storm looks like it is pretty weak, wind-wise. But its path (http://www.stormpulse.com/tropical-storm-lee-2011) will take it directly over my place (slightly north-west of New Orleans), and it is slowing, which means more rain. Although we've been in a drought for a while, this much rain at once is not going to help! :lol:

Farrar

Farrar

09-03-2011, 03:29 PM

Since I can't do anything outside (for obvious reasons), I decided to "bench test" (in my case, "floor test") the new cooling fan circuit. I had some scraps of wire and connectors lying around, as well as a blinking red LED. In order to test "fan failure" I simply disconnected the relays for each fan in turn.

First, a test to see if the bulb lights when both fans have failed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJy4_jp605s

Next, a test to see if the bulb lights when one fan has failed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxBURS6n4gU

And a test to see if the bulb lights when the other fan has failed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3VRKB50EQ

And finally a test to see if the bulb lights when both fans are working:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFRHr1i7k0

Looks good to me, and I learned a few things about wiring relay sockets while I was at it, so it was a good thing I did this test.

Now I just have to wait for the storm to pass...

Farrar

content22207

09-03-2011, 08:25 PM

I know I did not see you turning the set screw that presses against your throttle plates (twice)....

Actually you do have a *LITTLE* bit of wiggle before you expose the spark advance barb. Just don't open the throttle plates so much that the spark advance barb is exposed, otherwise you will be shooting that 23 inches of vacuum you're so proud of to the distributor, which can makes things exciting when you shut the engine off.

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc

09-03-2011, 08:45 PM

Farrar

09-03-2011, 11:29 PM

I know I did not see you turning the set screw that presses against your throttle plates (twice)....

That is how I set the curb idle.

Actually you do have a *LITTLE* bit of wiggle before you expose the spark advance barb. Just don't open the throttle plates so much that the spark advance barb is exposed, otherwise you will be shooting that 23 inches of vacuum you're so proud of to the distributor, which can makes things exciting when you shut the engine off.

If you're referring to dieseling, then yes -- I have experienced this once or twice. There's a fine line between this and having the engine idling too low, but I've managed to straddle that line pretty well so far. :)

Farrar

Farrar

09-05-2011, 02:38 PM

The rain is finally tapering off, and the high temperatures are supposed to get no higher than the mid-80s for the next few days. Looks like I may finally have a chance to finish working behind the passenger seat later this week.

Farrar

Farrar

09-05-2011, 07:38 PM

I may finally have a chance to finish working behind the passenger seat later this week.

...and that is exactly what I will end up doing, because I decided to try to start the car today and, even with the booster battery connected, I got ne'er a click when I turned the key.

I am now convinced that I have an electrical problem, and making sure all the relays have good contact is as good a place as any to start.

Farrar

content22207

09-05-2011, 07:41 PM

That's why you have a solenoid wire in the engine compartment....

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-05-2011, 07:46 PM

That's why you have a solenoid wire in the engine compartment....

That works, but it's embarrassing to have to start the car from the engine compartment all the time. More annoying: the key SOMETIMES works, which means that the problem is intermittent... or at least it was intermittent until this week.

Farrar

sean

09-05-2011, 07:50 PM

That works, but it's embarrassing to have to start the car from the engine compartment all the time. More annoying: the key SOMETIMES works, which means that the problem is intermittent... or at least it was intermittent until this week.

Farrar

There's to much to read through here but has the starter mod been done to your car and did you do your relay socket replacement yet?

content22207

09-05-2011, 07:51 PM

You just need to get in touch with your inner Redneck.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-05-2011, 08:19 PM

There's to much to read through here but has the starter mod been done to your car and did you do your relay socket replacement yet?

There are four brown wires on my blower motor circuit breaker, so I assume so.

I haven't had a chance to work in the relay compartment yet owing to the foul weather.

You just need to get in touch with your inner Redneck.

I am about to get in touch with my inner caveman, thanks to the frustrating problems that appear again and again and again.

First recurring problem: a leaky carburetor. (Cue Martin Gutkowski howling with laughter.)

490049014897

Second recurring problem: wet floor on the passenger side after a hard rain.

489548984899

(The driver's side floor, amazingly, is dry.)

4896

I'm going to have a glass of lemonade to calm my nerves, then go put some Damp-Rid in the car so it can work its wondrous goodness while I am at work tomorrow. I should be able to start working on the relay compartment tomorrow evening before dark. Leaky carburetor and wet floor notwithstanding -- I just want to be able to DRIVE the damn thing and fix the problems as I go like I was doing before my fuel pump woes started.

Farrar

sean

09-05-2011, 08:27 PM

There are four brown wires on my blower motor circuit breaker, so I assume so.

I'd still, for kicks, follow that brown wire from the breaker to the relay. Also make sure you got juice at the breaker, sure you do thourgh.

Second recurring problem: wet floor on the passenger side after a hard rain.

This sucks. Is your headliner dry? Once it gets dry out again you're gonna want to get a buddy to hose the side of the car down while you sit inside and try to see where it is making it's way in. Your roof wiper seals good?

content22207

09-05-2011, 08:31 PM

First recurring problem: a leaky carburetor.

Looks like your needle valve isn't shutting off fuel inlet. Could be trash between it and the seat (or a damaged tip or seat) or...

Have you wired your pump come on with Main or Aux Relay? If so, have you been energizing that relay while you mess with something else on the car? You can't leave the pump spinning (engine off) and expect the needle valve to keep up. I put a quick connect inline so I can disconnect my pump yet still energize the vehicle.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Second recurring problem: wet floor on the passenger side after a hard rain.

Make sure your windshield plenum drain is clear, otherwise rainwater will back up into the evaporator box via the fresh air door.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-05-2011, 08:37 PM

This sucks. Is your headliner dry? Once it gets dry out again you're gonna want to get a buddy to hose the side of the car down while you sit inside and try to see where it is making it's way in. Your roof wiper seals good?

Headliner's dry, and so is the area around the doors.

Make sure your windshield plenum drain is clear, otherwise rainwater will back up into the evaporator box via the fresh air door.

I stuck my hand all up underneath the dashboard and felt not a drop of water. Strangely, though, as you can see there are a few drops which have collected on the floor mat. That apart, the floor mat is completely dry -- the water has collected on the carpet itself, which makes me think that I have a leak somewhere else.

Primal scream on standby. :frantic:

Farrar

content22207

09-05-2011, 08:40 PM

See if the hose from the evaporator box to your blower motor is wet.

Also pour a bunch of water into the plenum and verify that it comes out the drain hole.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Ron

09-05-2011, 09:13 PM

You can't leave the pump spinning (engine off) and expect the needle valve to keep up.Don't the pumps you guys are using have internal pressure cutoffs?

Farrar

09-05-2011, 09:32 PM

It's possible my float is set incorrectly; I am not sure I bent it in the right place. (I bought a brass float along with my rebuild kit last year, but the float did not come with instructions.)

I can check this tomorrow.

Farrar

content22207

09-05-2011, 10:41 PM

Don't the pumps you guys are using have internal pressure cutoffs?

Nope. They just push merrily away.

As long as the engine is running you're OK.

Bill Robertson
#5939

dvonk

09-06-2011, 10:08 AM

First recurring problem: a leaky carburetor.

Looks like your needle valve isn't shutting off fuel inlet. Could be trash between it and the seat (or a damaged tip or seat) or...

It's possible my float is set incorrectly...

i had this problem when i rebuilt the 2bbl Carter carburetor on my '58 Buick. the float was set too high and the needle wasnt sealing fully in the seat, causing fuel to continually flow into the bowl. the excess would leak out of the carb and onto the intake manifold.

content22207

09-06-2011, 10:21 AM

Just so Farrar understands: Carters are opposite from Motorcrafts -- their needle valves are upside down (float pushes the needle valve up). If this is the problem, Farrar needs to bend the tab that presses against his needle valve *DOWN*.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-06-2011, 10:32 AM

Farrar needs to bend the tab that presses against his needle valve *DOWN*.

Having read this, I am pretty sure I adjusted the float incorrectly: I bent the piece of brass on the float side, not on the needle side. No problem; this is easy to correct.

I can't wait to clean up my engine compartment now that I've fixed the oil leak at the timing cover (with a heaping helping of RTV).

Farrar

content22207

09-06-2011, 10:41 AM

That's how you adjust a Carter (the needle valve rests between the float and the pivot).

Some people get all scientific with their float settings (that's why they give you that ridiculous little ruler in a rebuild kit). Just set it so the float is level when the needle valve is all the way seated.

It is possible to set the float so high it hits the top gasket and stops moving before the needle valve is fully seated.

Remember also that your wonderful brass float could be leaking and sinking. That's why they went to foam floats in the first place. Submerge the float in a bowl of water and watch for bubbles (turn it around in the bowl so all four sides of the seam have a chance to be on top).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-06-2011, 10:57 AM

your wonderful brass float could be leaking and sinking.

I hope not -- it's not very old yet. It floated when I last had a look in the carburetor bowl, but I guess I can have another look. Fortunately, it takes about two minutes to look inside.

I do need a new air filter. I guess if I get the thing started, I will head over to O'Reilly and convince the gal behind the counter that I really AM working on a DeLorean.

Farrar

content22207

09-06-2011, 11:02 AM

Just buy a generic 10 inch element. I use either STP 184 or 189.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-06-2011, 01:15 PM

After reading about the negative effects of gasohol on automotive fuel systems, I really have the urge to just get the car started and take it for a drive even as it is. Even going to the auto parts store to pick up an air filter (and maybe a spare fuel pump?) might be a good way to prevent the fuel from causing damage.

Since I moved to my new place in June I have not driven the car enough to fill up the tank yet at my neighborhood 100%-gasoline station, but this fall-like weather means that I can drive it comfortably, even without air conditioning. I want to burn off some of that ethanol that's been sitting in my tank since April.

Farrar

content22207

09-06-2011, 01:25 PM

No need to start the engine -- just energize the pump and your carb will apparently spit it out all over the manifold.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-06-2011, 01:29 PM

No need to start the engine -- just energize the pump and your carb will apparently spit it out all over the manifold.

No, it will just spit it out all over the inside of the fuel bowl. What is on the outside of the carburetor I gather is what seeped through the gaskets.

Farrar

Farrar

09-08-2011, 12:14 AM

Got absolutely nothing done on the car today. Went from home to work, work to class, class to more work, work to band practice, band practice to home and finally breakfast at 10:45pm.

How I am going to manage full-time job, part-time school, playing in two bands, and owning a DeLorean is going to be a miracle of scheduling and cooperative weather conditions.

(And a patient girlfriend -- who, bless her heart, the last time I took the D out for a spin and it stopped running, actually gave me a pep talk!)

Farrar

content22207

09-08-2011, 01:56 AM

Time for Mister "I can pop the top off my carb in just a minute or so" to pop the top off his carb in a minute or so and make sure that clip is in fact in place....

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-08-2011, 09:27 AM

Time for Mister "I can pop the top off my carb in just a minute or so" to pop the top off his carb in a minute or so and make sure that clip is in fact in place....

I should have some time this afternoon. But when I leave the apartment at 7:15am and don't get back until 10:45pm the last thing I want is to swat moths away while I'm working on my car. When it's that late, I want sleep!

Farrar

Farrar

09-09-2011, 12:07 AM

I replaced the screws in the trunk compartment with black nylon. Also the 10mm hex bolts in the engine compartment (power antenna access cover) replaced with M6 black nylon. I wish the rivnuts in the trunk were all M6, but there are a lot of M5 there. Annoying -- M6 fit my #2 philips driver better.

I checked the clip that holds down the needle valve. It snaps in but feels weak; I reused the old one so I have a new one in the box containing the unused rebuild parts from when I rebuilt the carb a little while ago. I will find that new clip tomorrow and give it a try.

I could have got more done, but the mosquitoes were beginning to swarm, my trunk lights had let go (brainstorming another solution shall commence presently), and I had to stew some squash and onions and grill some pork chops before the Saints started their loss to the Packers tonight. :lol:

Farrar

dvonk

09-09-2011, 01:00 AM

I replaced the screws in the trunk compartment with black nylon.

have some before/after pics? :biggrin:

Farrar

09-09-2011, 09:21 AM

have some before/after pics? :biggrin:

Before -- no. After -- I can get some tonight.

Farrar

Farrar

09-09-2011, 09:27 PM

Here are pics of the black nylon M5 and M6 screws installed in the luggage compartment.

4993
4994
4997
4995

I also used four of the M6 screws for the power antenna access panel in the engine compartment:

4996

The camera flash really highlights how dirty everything is right now. :(

Farrar

Forgot to mention that I swapped out the carburetor's float clip with one that came with the rebuild kit. It is in there very tight now, but it's too late for me to go on a test drive. (I have had enough of acquiring mosquito bites while waiting for a flatbed.) I will fire up the engine tomorrow morning and see if it will idle for at least 15 minutes before taking it out on the road.

And I still can't find the screws for the glove box lid. Dernit.

Farrar

sean

09-09-2011, 09:30 PM

And I still can't find the screws for the glove box lid. Dernit.

Farrar

Just blame it on the Saints defense, or lack there of. Who dat!

Farrar

09-09-2011, 09:40 PM

Aw, man. Last night was so disappointing. Sproles was a bright spot -- and in the last 3 minutes of the game I saw what looked like some of that 2009-season tightness and hustle. But the STUPID mistakes killed us! The final straw was what when, with seconds to go, instead of PASSING the ball with a decent chance of tying up the game, Brees HANDED it off (which is what the Packers expected, duh) to someone who had NO CHANCE of crossing the line into the end zone. That was classic 2010 Brees. I miss 2009 Brees. :lol:

Farrar

sean

09-09-2011, 10:05 PM

Sproles was awesome and I ain't a fan of the NFC, but the Saints did make it a game which better than what I was giving them after that first quarter. But it's game one and the offense for the most part looked pretty good, now they need work on stopping the opposition's drive. Rodgers walked all over them. I had to give you a little crap though. :p

Farrar

09-09-2011, 10:39 PM

Yeah, one of my co-workers put it this way: "On the one hand, it was a very interesting game. And on the other hand, of course, it sucked." :lol:

Hey, Saints fans are used to having a team that ain't great. ;)

Farrar

Farrar

09-10-2011, 01:39 PM

All right, I got the thing to start and run with flooding or starving for fuel. Must have been at least ten minutes total.

Bill, I still don't understand how you're supposed to idle the engine using air alone -- I need the curb idle screw pressing against the throttle plates to get anything other than a nasty, jawbone-shattering, "holy crap are your motor mounts okay and isn't that idling a little too low since your volt gauge reads 10" kind of idle. At 900 RPM everything smooths out. This is the best I can do, and it is still pretty rough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njozBUMU2Us

Farrar

content22207

09-10-2011, 02:26 PM

Put a timing light on each plug wire, as close to the plug as possible. I bet you'll find at least one that is missing intermittently. Remember: you were pouring excessive gasoline into the intake while the float was loose (fouled plugs and crap inside the cylinders).

You might be able to clean things up with a good long road burn. Don't be afraid to pull some serious RPM's with the transmission manually selected into 2nd.

Or just buy a clean set of plugs.

Another trick is to pour a bottle of tank cleaner straight down the throat of the carb. Dribble it in -- don't pour the whole bottle at once. You'll have to rev the engine while you do it. Creates a huge cloud of white smoke -- you might not want to do it in the apartment parking lot (parts house parking lot is OK).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-10-2011, 04:05 PM

You might be able to clean things up with a good long road burn. Don't be afraid to pull some serious RPM's with the transmission manually selected into 2nd.

I am ALWAYS afraid of pulling serious RPMs with this car. It's thirty years old and I don't want to break it.

Stale fuel may also be a potential problem -- I am down to just above 1/4 of a tank which was last filled up a few months ago. (Thank goodness a carburetor doesn't care what sort of liquid it's metering.) If I am feeling foolish enough today, I will drive the car to a filling station and fill the tank with 100% gasoline. A new air filter is also in order. Those can be had close by, fortunately -- I need to take the car for a safety inspection before I do too much driving since I don't want to get pulled over.

Farrar

Kenny_Z

09-10-2011, 04:24 PM

Seafoam that car. I swear by the stuff. I purchased a lousy running 1989 Astro van for 200 dollars and after a bottle of Seafoam she ran like a champ. I ran half a bottle through the engine and then drown the engine with the rest and let it sit overnight.

It smokes like crazy though, like Bill said, don't do it in a parking lot or around complaining neighbors. My neighbors thought it was hilarious.

content22207

09-10-2011, 04:35 PM

:47-:55 it is missing pretty badly. 1:29-1:44 too.

Fuel mixture is richer at idle than at throttle. Letting the car idle with fouled plugs is only going to make them worse, not better.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-10-2011, 06:12 PM

Spark plug report: 1, 2, & 3: fine. 4, 5, & 6: sooty.

In spite of this, I decided to try to timing light check. When I started the engine, boy was I surprised! The engine idles as you saw when it's warmed up, but when it's cold it idles like shit -- it was like someone was practicing paradiddles on the throttle. (Despite this, the timing light indicated everything was firing as normal.)

I figured that the left-hand side of the engine must still be running too rich, and yet the instant I turned the left-hand idle air screw in, the engine started fumbling. On the other hand, I could turn the right-hand idle air screw in until it seated and I could hear the air sizzling through the venturi and it did not affect at all how the engine was idling. So although I have seen worse spark plugs, it looks like it's time for a new set.

I'll post a picture of the old spark plugs when I get back.

Farrar

I'll post a picture of the old spark plugs when I get back.

And here they are.

Left to right, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6:
5036

Plug #4:
5037

Plug #1:
5038

New plugs are gapped (0.44") and installed. But I have a wedding to go to, so any attempt at running the engine will have to wait until tomorrow.

Farrar

content22207

09-10-2011, 08:14 PM

Make sure you don't have any vacuum leaks (don't forget to spray the underside of the intake ports). If you can't get the engine to idle without cracking open the throttle plates that sometimes indicates a vacuum leak.

I've idled carb conversions all the way down to 500 RPM, so it definitely can be done.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-11-2011, 12:35 AM

I've idled carb conversions all the way down to 500 RPM, so it definitely can be done.

I did that today. Only I was afraid that the engine was going to walk out of the car...!

Farrar

AdmiralSenn

09-11-2011, 10:30 AM

Idling that low, it shouldn't vibrate that badly. I had Christine idling that low at one point while I was fiddling with the fueling information and it actually ran VERY smoothly and quietly.

Ryan King

09-11-2011, 12:44 PM

Farrar

09-11-2011, 04:38 PM

This SeaFoam thing reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXetbuEFLvM

Farrar

robvanderveer

09-11-2011, 04:48 PM

That sounds familiar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMUGjlV5HU

Ron

09-11-2011, 05:08 PM

This SeaFoam thing reminds me of this:
Farrar
I heard of doing that causing a chunk of carbon to turn loose and it getting caught under an exhaust valve...

Seafoam reminds me of this (http://www.google.com/imgres?q=girl+seafoam&start=375&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1016&bih=575&tbm=isch&tbnid=PBH4U4DOWP4dcM:&imgrefurl=http://www.dianesbeachwear.com/%3Fgo%3D/product_detail/swimwear/1/0_all_brands/89_One-Pieces/1111-1P_97/BITTERSWEET_1PC/&docid=hB8acH6p56AGZM&w=318&h=318&ei=eSBtTtatMci1twf6usC-BQ&zoom=1&chk=sbg&iact=rc&dur=16&page=23&tbnh=121&tbnw=120&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:375&tx=74&ty=68).

Farrar

09-11-2011, 05:18 PM

Just a quick thought before I run off to a rehearsal:

If my problem is really carbon build-up, then there are plenty of options out there to remove it. In fact, there seem to be many options, from the ridiculous (tap water) to the sublime (at least, sublimely priced for whoever manufactures it).

I have a little bit of carb cleaner left. Spraying it down the carb throat while the engine is running may help things a bit. If not, I have a can of Berryman's B12 which I bought for my other car and never used. B12 is supposed to be as good as Seafoam, plus I already spent the $3 on it a while ago.

Rob- No problem starting the car, thanks. ;)

Farrar

content22207

09-11-2011, 08:09 PM

This SeaFoam thing reminds me of this:

The carburetor is not original to that car -- it's a 1970's Motorcraft 2100, not a 1960's Autolite 2100.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-11-2011, 09:12 PM

Ron, the fact that you go shopping for women's swimsuits leaves me wondering what you will wear to DCS Orlando... ;)

Bill, can you see any harm in pouring some B-12 down the carburetor? Would you recommend the engine be hot/cold or revving high/low?

Unfortunately I have no more time for the car tonight, and will only have a few minutes tomorrow afternoon. I have yet to start the engine with the new spark plugs installed, but I will have the camera rolling when it happens. That way, everyone can be startled right along with me. :)

Edit: The new plugs, by the way, are nothing special -- they're just ordinary copper-core Autolites. Number 103. Normal heat range, and all that.

Farrar

content22207

09-11-2011, 09:48 PM

You need to drive the car. Good long road burns are the kindest thing you can do for an engine. Drive up to see Steve or down to see Fred, if for no other reason than to give the engine some exercise.

Locomotive burning off carbon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1Fj17ADwrg

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-11-2011, 10:05 PM

You need to drive the car.

Wow, cool video! That brings back memories. I remember collecting spent cinders from by the railroad tracks when I was a kid.

Anyway, the last two times I took the car on the road for a quick test-drive, AAA towed me home two to three hours after I departed the domicile. Sparky is (over)due for a safety inspection, so if I take it out on the road, the first place I will go is to get a "brake tag." This will only happen during the day (and week), which means I will have to leave work early. After that, I need fuel (the gauge reads 1/4 tank and I do not trust it very much).

I will try to start and idle the engine tomorrow evening now that the new plugs are in, and maybe spray some carburetor cleaner down the ol' 2150 once the engine warms up. If all goes well, maybe I will drive the car to work on Tuesday, and get a "brake tag" on the way home so I am less nervous about putting the car on the open road.

Farrar

Ron

09-11-2011, 10:24 PM

Ron, the fact that you go shopping for women's swimsuits leaves me wondering what you will wear to DCS Orlando... ;)

:hysterical:I missed this somehow earlier!

I um..er..a..was searching for "girl+seafoam" (The ad says $279.00....do I need to send them back?), to give you an example of what it reminded me of.
As you can clearly see in the link/address bar, I'll have you know!

It's more likely that I would go naked, giving them away, than wearing one.
Not a good idea...neither gonna' happen!

I think I owe you a PM for this...

Farrar

09-11-2011, 11:39 PM

Never say never, Ron -- it's gonna be hot down there in Orlando. It might be time to break out the mankini!

;)

Farrar

Ron

09-11-2011, 11:49 PM

Never say never, Ron -- it's gonna be hot down there in Orlando. It might be time to break out the mankini!

;)

FarrarIf it didn't come with a swim suit, ya want one?:devil:

Farrar

09-12-2011, 09:32 AM

If it didn't come with a swim suit, ya want one?:devil:

I will probably be wearing something inconspicuous... or maybe a t-shirt that says "General Farrar."

Farrar

Ron

09-12-2011, 12:50 PM

I will probably be wearing something inconspicuous... or maybe a t-shirt that says "General Farrar."

FarrarNo, not for you, for your manikin you were talking about silly!

Yes General, I keep seeing where you received the promotion along with the new forum...along with the animation you used to have in your sig. I guess privileges come with the rank, but all of this makes me wonder what you did to receive it...
[Seriously though, since Sean seems to be in a good mood today maybe we can talk him into appending a ":" to all of them.]

Farrar

09-12-2011, 01:05 PM

I was speaking of the "mankini," not a "mannequin."

For clarification, here's a mannequin -- mercifully, not Borat -- wearing a mankini.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Mankini_%28cropped%29.jpg

I am an admin in Gulf Coast DeLoreans only -- I run the GCD website and whatnot. My "promotion" came with the creation of GCD, not with the new DMCTalk. (When I created Farrar's Car Blog, I figured the "General" would be in brackets or something, but in my browser it says "General Farrar's Car Blog." So I have a real promotion and a fake one. :lol:)

Farrar

Ron

09-12-2011, 01:39 PM

:hysterical: I have to get my reading glasses fixed!...
It looked like you said "manikin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manikin)", a life-sized anatomically correct model, which is why I thought "Aw, a perfect chance to get even with him for the "shopping for women's swimsuits" AND put him on the defensive".

That didn't work too well!

[Ditto previous PM]

stevedmc

09-12-2011, 02:00 PM

content22207

09-12-2011, 02:11 PM

Made out of the right kind of material, it will revolutionize any activity that involves raising your arms over your head.

If every army in the world wore these, there would be no more war -- the soldiers would just stand around doing jumping jacks all day.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Ron

09-12-2011, 02:18 PM

the soldiers would just stand around doing jumping jacks all day.Looks/sounds painful!

content22207

09-12-2011, 02:22 PM

I think this is one instance where proper size and fit would leave a few intentional wrinkles in the fabric.

Mind you, this all depends upon the right kind of cloth. We're not talking about canvas here. The Army will most likely need to outsource its mankinis from Adam & Eve.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-12-2011, 05:47 PM

Looks like the opposite of ballroom jeans (http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/duluth-ingenuity/gusseted-ballroom-jeans/gusseted-ballroom-jeans.aspx).

Farrar

Farrar

09-13-2011, 10:01 AM

All right, back to car stuff, but a different car: while pressing down the accelerator going uphill, I heard a little tapping in the PT's engine compartment. I've been trying to cheap out using 87 octane even though it's turbocharged. (The manual didn't say I couldn't!) So the last time I filled up I used mid-octane fuel and the tapping is gone. Which is better: filling up with higher-octane fuel, or buying an octane booster and dumping it in the tank when I fill up?

Farrar

sean

09-13-2011, 11:34 AM

Which is better: filling up with higher-octane fuel, or buying an octane booster and dumping it in the tank when I fill up?

I've never deviated from the recommended octane requirement that the owner's manual has suggested for our turbo. For the first year I did only premium but found the same performance can be had using mid-grade, since mid-grade still fell within the octane range suggested, without any side effects.

What does your owner's manual suggest?

Farrar

09-13-2011, 11:47 AM

What does your owner's manual suggest?

The owner's manual, stupidly, says nothing at all about fuel requirements.

There are two versions of turbocharged PT Cruiser engines: the one I have, which is also known as "Turbo Light," and the HO or "High Output" engine, which does require higher-octane fuel: on the HO cars, known as "GT Cruisers," there's a sticker on the inside of the fuel filler door which says "Premium Fuel Only." My PT has no such sticker, so I assumed that I was okay using 87 octane.

(BTW, turbo lite puts out 180 emissions-friendly horsepower; GT is rated 230hp. This is from a lighter, smaller engine than the PRV6! Makes me wonder if someone will eventually put a turbocharged I4 in a DeLorean some day... if I were making a mid-engined DMC, I would definitely go that route.)

Farrar

sean

09-13-2011, 01:01 PM

The owner's manual, stupidly, says nothing at all about fuel requirements.

Actually it seems it does! According to this site:
http://www.chrysler.com/en/owners/manuals/

You were correct to use 87 octane! 91 octane is recommended for HO turbo engines.

Farrar

09-13-2011, 01:05 PM

Actually it seems it does!

DOH! Well, I guess I should have looked through that (tedious and unnecessarily lengthy and badly-written) manual more carefully. Thanks!

Now I suppose I have to go and see what is causing that ticking under load... maybe it's time for me to take advantage of that Service Contract I am paying for. :)

Farrar

Farrar

09-14-2011, 09:59 AM

Just when I was planning on being back in DeLoreanLand yesterday, I have been hit with a massive head cold (and with my narrow sinuses, that's never any fun). If I can Sudafed-and-Advil my way to feeling halfway human, I will crank the engine and video the results.

Farrar

stevedmc

09-14-2011, 10:23 AM

Farrar

09-14-2011, 10:35 AM

Have you ever tried a sinus rinse? This product works miracles for me when I start having sinus/cold problems.

Everyone I know swears by these things and every time I have tried one (the NeilMed version pictured and the Neti Pot version) it has only made me feel worse. My sinuses are just built differently from most folks', I guess.

What does seem to work, for me anyway, is putting a few drops of peppermint or eucalyptus essential oil in a pan of water, heating it on the stove, and inhaling the steam. I hope to be able to do that tonight when I get home from work and class.

Farrar

stevedmc

09-14-2011, 10:45 AM

Everyone I know swears by these things and every time I have tried one (the NeilMed version pictured and the Neti Pot version) it has only made me feel worse. My sinuses are just built differently from most folks', I guess.

What does seem to work, for me anyway, is putting a few drops of peppermint or eucalyptus essential oil in a pan of water, heating it on the stove, and inhaling the steam. I hope to be able to do that tonight when I get home from work and class.

Farrar

They usually make me feel worse for a few minutes and then things clear up. But yeah, things work differently for everybody. Get better soon man.

Bitsyncmaster

09-14-2011, 10:57 AM

Everyone I know swears by these things and every time I have tried one (the NeilMed version pictured and the Neti Pot version) it has only made me feel worse. My sinuses are just built differently from most folks', I guess.
Farrar

It takes a little practice using it but once you get the swing of it you will use it anytime sinus problems show up. Most people try it once and don't get any results so give up.

Farrar

09-14-2011, 11:05 AM

Most people try it once and don't get any results so give up.

I tried it at least six times and tired of feeling like my sinuses were on fire and my head was going to burst like a balloon every time I used it. Then I gave up.

I'm weird, I guess.

Farrar

stevedmc

09-14-2011, 11:18 AM

I tried it at least six times and tired of feeling like my sinuses were on fire and my head was going to burst like a balloon every time I used it. Then I gave up.

I'm weird, I guess.

Farrar

Did you use the salt? It burns if you don't use the salt.

Farrar

09-14-2011, 11:25 AM

Did you use the salt? It burns if you don't use the salt.

It said that first-time users should use half a packet in the water, so I did that and it burned. After that, I tried a full packet, and it burned. I bought a bottle of that "sinus rinse boost," which is also supposed to be more soothing, and tried adding that to the solution. That seemed to make things worse.

I dunno, it probably has something to do with the narrow sinus passages I have... I have to be very careful when I am congested, always blowing my nose and never sniffing, because my sinuses block easily and it leads to sinus infections in a heartbeat. Until I started being more careful about this, I was getting sinus infections about four to six times a year. Paying more attention to the way I breathe when I am congested and a change of diet has helped greatly, but when I get a cold, things still get tricky and I have to watch out for potential sinus infection development.

And that's more information than you ever needed to know about that! Enjoy. :lol:

Farrar

stevedmc

09-14-2011, 11:55 AM

Carb cleaner works mirracles when cleaning out small passages. You might be able to clean your nose out with it and get a nice buzz at the same time.

Ron

09-14-2011, 12:06 PM

Carb cleaner sucks. I guarantee that after a couple of good snorts of straight ether, you won't feel any burning at all.

Farrar

09-14-2011, 10:36 PM

It looks like I have a touch of 'flu. Oh well, at least my sinuses are draining and I have plenty of anti-nausea medicine on hand.

I have 1,043 hours of sick time available... so I plan on staying home the next two days. Maybe during the spells I am feeling not-so-crappy I can make some headway with Sparky's electrical compartment. I have been wanting to do those relays now for a couple of weeks.

Time for an early night.

Thanks, all, for the well-wishes!

Farrar

Farrar

09-16-2011, 05:58 PM

Feeling almost 100% now. Will get to the car tomorrow or Sunday. I have to catch up on work and school first.

Best,
Farrar

Farrar

09-19-2011, 11:51 AM

Well, my immune system got its bony little butt kicked the past few days... turns out there's some nasty stomach bug going around. That has worked its way out of my system but I still have a nasty chest cold. Sorry no progress or pictures of late.

Farrar

Farrar

09-19-2011, 07:15 PM

Wow, when I posted the previous entry I saw that this thread had 5,600 views. Now it's got 28 more! Since so many folks are watching, I need to appeal to the community.

But first, a little back-story.

I got home from work and class today and started having some food. Next I will be going to band practice. For an instant, I thought "Hey! I put new spark plugs in the D, adjusted the float and idle air screws and put in a new needle valve clip -- I should drive the D since it's cool outside!" And then I thought "But wait -- the last two times I thought I would take that car out for five minutes I ended up waiting for a tow home. Never mind." A year ago I would not have hesitated to drive the car anywhere, and now I have come to the point where I think "Why take the fun car when I can take the reliable car instead?" At least in my head, the DeLorean is now less reliable than a plumber's estimate. A year ago I would not have hesitated to drive the car anywhere.

What happened? I initially quit driving the car because, with no a/c, it was so hot outside that I couldn't stand to sit in the vehicle for more than a few minutes. Months elapsed, and when I drove it again, the fuel pump died. So I installed a new fuel pump, and I had an oil leak. So I fixed the oil leak. Then the carburetor leaked. So I rebuilt the carburetor... and flooded the engine, and fouled three spark plugs. So I bought new spark plugs. Most folks could probably have gone through this amount of work in a few days, but because I am busy and the weather down here generally sucks this time of year, it has taken me a couple of months to do this. I last drove the car to the filling station in April; the tank is still 3/4 full.

As the car has sat, it has acquired a lengthy to-do list:

- remove unused relay sockets
- re-wire cooling fan circuit
- sand and paint fascias
- replace evaporator
- replace blower motor switch
- replace rusty hardware underneath car (rocker panels, fuel tank closing plate, seat studs)
- repair driver's seat (broken stud)

I could use a bit of a pep talk at this point. I don't know what to work on first, and the car needs to be ready for a photo-shoot by the end of the month. What do y'all think?

Farrar

content22207

09-19-2011, 09:53 PM

People took pictures of the Tucker prototype, and it had to be pushed around.

Your April gas will be fine. The pictures of my 400 inch Lincoln ignition were taken with the car running on 5 year old gas. Smells like hell, but it will explode.

At least your DeLorean has front wheels. I couldn't drive either of mine if I wanted to.

You do need to run a new ground from your inertia switch to one of the driver side body bolts. Rather than trying to find a ring terminal that large, just strip back a bunch of wire, wrap it around the bolt, and be sure to pinch some of the jacket under the head to act as a strain relief.

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc

09-19-2011, 10:07 PM

If you can get the car to my house I promise to have the AC fixed for you in time for our open house event.

content22207

09-19-2011, 10:11 PM

You are aware Farrar needs a new evaporator installed?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Ron

09-19-2011, 10:21 PM

If you can get the car to my house I promise to have the AC fixed for you in time for our open house event.That sounds like the route to go, IMHO, Farrar. -- The rest is mostly 'maintenance' not preventing you from using/enjoying it.

stevedmc

09-19-2011, 10:26 PM

You are aware Farrar needs a new evaporator installed?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yep. The car will sit under my carport until it is fixed.

Farrar

09-20-2011, 09:34 AM

stevedmc

09-20-2011, 10:17 AM

So it looks like the consensus is that I should drive the car to Steve's house and fix the a/c...

Question: if the car dies on the way there, do I have it towed home, or to Steve's house? I am a AAA+ member...

Farrar

Towing to my house sounds good to me. We can fix whatever else might break while we are in the shade.

I'm going to a family reunion Saturday but I'll be available again Sunday afternoon and every Saturday/weekend after that. Just let me know when is good for you.

I love the idea of having a celebrity's car in my carport.

content22207

09-20-2011, 10:19 AM

If the car is staying at Steve's house, how do you plan to get back to New Orleans?

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc

09-20-2011, 10:22 AM

If the car is staying at Steve's house, how do you plan to get back to New Orleans?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Me.

In a perfect world however, he could show up early one Saturday and we could have all the AC work done by dark. But with Deloreans I have learned to multiply all repair times by four. I expect to run into problems resulting it it taking four days to get the job done.

Farrar

09-20-2011, 10:32 AM

I have this awesome girlfriend who can pick me up in Livingston if necessary.

OK, I will plan on doing a/c work at Steve's house as soon as I can make it out there. I can start troubleshooting my fuel system today when I get home from radioland.

Farrar

Farrar

09-20-2011, 09:55 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXOsV6rum7U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVj5h1ac25c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfkcn_M2W0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLDRrVG5gU

My head is filled with remarkably rude words, all jostling for release; and a fair amount of numbing confusion.

Good night.

Farrar

content22207

09-20-2011, 10:11 PM

Farrar

09-20-2011, 10:22 PM

You're sucking air, most likely at the intake ports (where the manifold mates to the heads). Spray them with carb or brake cleaner. Don't forget to shoot underneath.

If you pop the manifold off I bet you will find a damaged O ring.

Unless your manifold hold down bolts are just loose.

Of course there is vapor coming from the breather hose -- your engine isn't running.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Bill, you're probably right, but the question is how. There's no way the bolts could have loosened themselves -- I haven't had the manifold off in ages. I had no vacuum leaks and the damn car was running rock solid and idling smoothly when I was driving it regularly several months ago. Then the fuel pump died. O-rings can't damage themselves, can they? Are there DeLorean fairies which circle the globe and cause vacuum leaks? We do seem to be plagued by the damn things no matter what fuel-delivery we're running.

And the carburetor still leaks fuel. But you noticed that, I'm sure.

Now I really AM going to bed. I need extra sleep -- I have to drive the car tomorrow, somehow.

Farrar

opethmike

09-20-2011, 10:38 PM

I've found that a real good way to check for vacuum leaks is to take a fog machine that you would buy from a party supply store, take the front cap off, attach a vacuum hose to the little brass/copper nozzle, and then attach the other end to intake vacuum.

Seal off the throttle plates with plastic wrap, a cap, whatever. Turn the machine on and see where the smoke comes out.

Farrar

09-21-2011, 09:28 AM

Of course there is vapor coming from the breather hose -- your engine isn't running.

What's it supposed to smell like? It smells like smoke to me.

Farrar

content22207

09-21-2011, 09:51 AM

It will smell like the underside of a valve cover.

When the engine is running, PCV pulls those vapors into the carb base. You can put your finger over the breather hose and feel PCV sucking.

When you turn the engine off, the breather hose becomes a chimney to the outside world.

5304

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-21-2011, 10:54 AM

It will smell like the underside of a valve cover.

Check.

Okeydoke, I was just wondering if it might have anything to do with the coolant I found in the air cleaner housing the last time I drove the car.

Gonna look for an air leak around the intake manifold this afternoon before driving it. In any event, the car needs to be somewhere under its own power this evening. With any luck, the vacuum leak won't melt any of my new spark plugs.

Farrar

Ron

09-21-2011, 11:42 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXOsV6rum7UFarrar,
A question and word of advice, if I may:
Has that float been re-soldered? If so, get another one, its weight is fairly critical.
You should never EVER push down on or pop the needle valve side of the float with your finger.

Farrar

09-21-2011, 11:50 AM

Farrar,
A question and word of advice, if I may:
Has that float been re-soldered? If so, get another one, its weight is fairly critical.
You should never EVER push down on or pop the needle valve side of the float with your finger.

Thanks for the advice. I don't know if the float has been re-soldered; I bought it from a store so I figured it was legit. The black plastic float that came with the carb was beginning to become porous, so I replaced it with this one last year.

When I have to remove the float to adjust it, I remove its clip with tweezers. My fingers are too big to get into that recess.

Just how delicate is the needle valve? I know it has a rubber tip, but it doesn't look damaged to me. Since one is supposed to adjust the float level "dry," how does one get the needle valve to seat without moving it down manually?

Farrar

Ron

09-21-2011, 12:22 PM

Thanks for the advice. I don't know if the float has been re-soldered; I bought it from a store so I figured it was legit. The black plastic float that came with the carb was beginning to become porous, so I replaced it with this one last year.The only reason I asked is that the soldering looked..um...shitty...as if the excess wasn't removed and it missed the weight check. I've seen them look 'ugly', but the amount and drip I see raised a red flag. Maybe nothing...you can measure and compare.
If nothing was done to it since it was running fine I wouldn't worrry about it, at least until you had it apart again...

Just how delicate is the needle valve? I know it has a rubber tip, but it doesn't look damaged to me. Since one is supposed to adjust the float level "dry," how does one get the needle valve to seat without moving it down manually?

FarrarVery. There is always a warning about it in the kits if nothing else.
Usually, a ring will form around the tip rather than bust or crack it... (A very thin ring is natural, from the float pushing on it, eventually.)
You invert the carb to set the float, always. (Don't let someone talk you out of being precise here. Note the varying measurements for different vehicles, dozens of them for a given carb, given down to at least 1/64 = .015625 inch! The measurement is with the float's weight supplying the pressure (through the lever).)

Farrar

09-21-2011, 12:26 PM

Maybe nothing...you can measure and compare.

How heavy is it supposed to be? It certainly seems to float just fine.

You invert the carb to set the float.

Ah HA! This was not mentioned in the instructions that came with my rebuild kit. I guess they figured anyone who is rebuilding a carb knows what he is doing; they were wrong, of course.

I will check the needle valve again tonight. When I looked at it yesterday, it looked brand new.

Thanks,
Farrar

content22207

09-21-2011, 12:32 PM

I'm sure your needle valve is fine. If you have any doubt, energize the pump and see if fuel flow is shut off. If it is, your tip is fine.

That is one advantage of electric fuel pumps over mechanical pumps.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-21-2011, 09:00 PM

The needle valve is fine.

So are all of my O-rings and vacuum lines.

I have spark on all six cylinders.

Still runs like crap.

Suggestions?

Edit: On second thought, you can make suggestions but I will simply add them to a to-do list. I am not going to do anything to the car until I have a nice long chunk of time to work on it. I am going to take a DeLorean vacation and concentrate on school and work, for now.

Farrar

content22207

09-21-2011, 09:54 PM

If you are 100% sure your intake is vacuum tight (that includes HVAC/brake booster and modulator valve. Also make sure whatever you are using in the injector bungs is vacuum tight), this is an instance where you need to use the curb idle screw.

Reseat the idle screws all the way. Use the curb idle screw to crack the throttle plates open enough for the engine to run. While it's warming up, use a timing light to ensure all 6 plugs are firing consistently.

When the engine is warm, alternate between opening the idle screws and closing the throttle plates. Open each idle screw about 1/2 turn, then try backing off the curb idle screw. It shouldn't take long for you to find idle screw settings that allow the engine to idle smoothly with the throttle plates fully closed (curb idle screw not touching at all) -- about 1.5 to 2 turns. 3.5 turns is way too far -- something is definitely wrong there. I just double checked mine -- just shy of 2 turns each.

If you haven't touched the fast idle screw or rotated the choke housing, you should be all set for a cold start tomorrow.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-21-2011, 11:39 PM

stevedmc

09-22-2011, 01:43 PM

Still runs like crap.

Suggestions?

We could just meet up and swap carbs/manifolds for testing purposes. If your car still runs like crap your issue lies somewhere else.

Edit: I'm going to be in Laplace tomorrow after work. If you have time then we could meet up and swap stuff in a parking lot somewhere.

Farrar

09-22-2011, 04:39 PM

I'm going to be in Laplace tomorrow after work. If you have time then we could meet up and swap stuff in a parking lot somewhere.

No time for that tomorrow, but I appreciate the offer.

Farrar

Farrar

09-22-2011, 06:15 PM

I just had an interesting thought: every time I spend money on an area of the car, I have trouble in another area. Perhaps I should simply avoid spending money on any upgrades or improvements of any kind, instead simply waiting until things break and replacing them as needed.

Ah, well. The vacation continues. (Although I will have to move it to a different parking spot soon.) Easy enough not to spend money on it when I'm not driving it.

Farrar

content22207

09-22-2011, 09:15 PM

Have you ensured your HVAC/brake booster line is vaccum tight? Last year Matt Spittle's HVAC supply line cracked underneath the console, just as mine did in 2003. Use your hand held vacuum pump to ensure both lines hold vacuum (pull it off the manifold and test it there).

Also test your modulator valve while you're at it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-22-2011, 11:27 PM

Is the "modulator valve" the thing behind the HVAC selector switch with all the different vacuum lines for the air flaps connected to it?

Farrar

content22207

09-22-2011, 11:36 PM

It's the vacuum operated valve on the transmission that keeps it from shifting like a 1952 Mack truck -- the other 3/16" line off the back of your manifold.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-22-2011, 11:42 PM

It's the vacuum operated valve on the transmission that keeps it from shifting like a 1952 Mack truck -- the other 3/16" line off the back of your manifold.

Okay, thanks! Yup, I checked that yesterday and it's good.

Perhaps I should replace all vacuum lines with silicone for my own peace of mind.

Of course, if I spend money on expensive hoses, I am sure something else will break.

Hm, decisions, decisions...

Farrar

content22207

09-22-2011, 11:48 PM

Buy a $3.99 assortment of vacuum plugs instead. They will do everything you need until this idle situation is sorted out.

You won't need any of the 1/4" plugs -- stick them on your courtesy light door plungers.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar

09-22-2011, 11:55 PM

Check ignition with a timing light. If it flashes consistently on each spark plug, they are fine.

Fortunately, I've done that already. I get even, regular flashes on each wire right above the plug.

Buy a $3.99 assortment of vacuum plugs instead. They will do everything you need until this idle situation is sorted out.

I will try blocking off all of the vacuum ports next. I actually thought of doing that last night while chewing the matter over with a bandmate of mine* at a photo-shoot, but I was busy (as I was tonight, and will be tomorrow night).

If I decide like punishing myself, or can bathe in DEET, or get someone to hold an umbrella over me while I work, or all three, I might try the vacuum cap method this weekend.

Farrar

--
*Interesting fellow -- he told me of a '72 Buick he once had which had developed a crack in the carburetor so small that he couldn't see it. Symptoms: every time it rained, the car would die, but when it dried up again, the car would start and run fine again -- until, of course, the next time it rained. He told me he eventually covered the entire thing in JB Weld. (The carburetor was craptastic, anyway.)

Farrar

09-23-2011, 12:08 AM

With all that has been going on, a quick look at a the plugs might not be a bad idea..

The plugs have less than ten minutes of use; I doubt I can glean anything from them.

Farrar

stevedmc

09-23-2011, 12:13 AM

The plugs have less than ten minutes of use; I doubt I can glean anything from them.

Farrar

This is highly unlikely but maybe his plugs are defective or aren't gapped properly. Was it idling like crap before you replaced them?

Farrar

09-23-2011, 12:22 AM

Was it idling like crap before you replaced them?

Yep. But I noticed the plugs on the left were really dark, so I replaced them all and re-adjusted the idle air mixture screws so that the fuel flow would be balanced side-to-side.

Edit: FWIW, they're plain old Autolite 103 plugs; nothing special about them. I gapped them at .044"

Farrar

stevedmc

09-23-2011, 12:25 AM

Yep. But I noticed the plugs on the left were really dark, so I replaced them all and re-adjusted the idle air mixture screws so that the fuel flow would be balanced side-to-side.

Edit: FWIW, they're plain old Autolite 103 plugs; nothing special about them. I gapped them at .044"

Farrar

Did you ever figure out why there was coolant in the air filter housing? I can do a combustion test for you next time we are around each other. If you have a head gasket leak, that could be the very reason you are having idle problems.

When I had my head gasket leak I had to run a higher octane gas otherwise the engine would knock.

EDIT: Were any of your plugs wet?

sean

09-23-2011, 07:31 AM

Edit: FWIW, they're plain old Autolite 103 plugs; nothing special about them. I gapped them at .044"

Any reason you went with Autolite? I've never had success with them, ngk's or single prong platinum Bosch. I've always used Bosch silver or +4's and the best results with them. I may be treading "which oil is best" territory but just thought I'd ask.

Farrar

09-23-2011, 09:15 AM

Any reason you went with Autolite?

Same brand I had last time. Prior to that, I had something different, but couldn't recall the brand, but I know it wasn't Bosch, NGK, Champion, or anything else fancy/foreign -- my car has always run on ordinary copper-core spark plugs.

Farrar

content22207

09-23-2011, 11:41 PM

Multi electrode plugs can't be regapped.

It's not as though you get 4 sparks with 4 electrodes. As soon as spark jumps one of the electrodes, that's it -- you won't get any others.

The reason you may be having better success with them is because they come gapped very small, which is right up Bosch ignition's alley (Bosch coils can not jump common breakerless plug gaps -- they are limited to small plug gaps).

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc

09-24-2011, 12:09 AM

I've never had success with them, ngk's or single prong platinum Bosch.

I'm running NGKs gapped at .05 with HEI just fine.

Farrar

09-26-2011, 11:18 AM

Result of a photo-shoot Friday night:

http://www.consortiumofgenius.com/lectures/10-14-11_f.jpg

The crew simply drove to my apartment and I sputtered the car into two parking spaces so that there was enough room for everyone.

Farrar

sean

09-26-2011, 11:19 AM

Result of a photo-shoot Friday night:

very Cool! you look pretty mean behind the wheel.

Farrar

09-26-2011, 11:23 AM

very Cool! you look pretty mean behind the wheel.

I was told to snarl. Heh.

Well at least my car looks good while it sits. :P

Farrar

Farrar

10-01-2011, 03:21 PM

I have given up trying to make things any better.

Having new O-rings under the intake manifold, today I tested with my MityVac every vacuum line in the engine compartment. They're all tight. So I re-connected the vacuum lines to the carburetor/manifold, turned the idle air mixture screws to 2.5, backed the curb idle screw off the throttle, connected the battery, and turned the key. Amazingly, the engine started without the booster battery. I took this to be a good sign. But even at 1500 RPM (on the fast-idle cam) the engine was still stumbling.

I waited for the engine to warm up (radiator fans came on). After that, I had to use the curb idle screw to press on the throttle plates, because the engine was stumbling badly and wanted to die below 900 RPM.

Using the curb idle screw pressing on the throttle, I set the idle to about 950 RPM.

Tweaking the idle air mixture screws did nothing to improve the situation -- messing with them only made the engine run worse, so I put them back at 2.5 turns and left them alone after that.

Just for good measure, after the engine was warmed up I pushed on the throttle and sprayed some carb cleaner down the throat of the carburetor. It smelled bad but did nothing to improve the engine's stumble.

Once again, for good measure, I verified spark on each cylinder with my timing light.

I sprayed carb cleaner around the surfaces where the manifold meets the engine block. Although I smelled what smelled like burning carburetor cleaner, I saw nothing coming out the exhaust and noticed no difference in the running of the engine so I assume what I was smelling was the carb cleaner evaporating very quickly off of the hot metal surfaces in the engine compartment.

Just for good measure, I let the car sit and idle while the radiator fans came on and shut off a few times. Nothing else really happened ...

... except that I noticed the EFFING OIL LEAK IS BACK AGAIN. So I will no longer have a nice dry engine compartment like I did for a few weeks; it's back to changing the air filter and mopping up oil out of the engine valley every time I drive, avoiding rain because my belts will slip, and having a fine mist of oil covering everything in the engine compartment, including my hands whenever I work back there.

Since I can't even get the engine to idle right, I'm not going to bother trying to fix the oil leak anymore. I'm not even going to try to get the engine to idle right. I'm not going to drive the car unless I have to. There's just no point. The situation can't be improved, so I am just going to accept what I have -- a thirty-year-old car that runs like crap, has no air conditioning, dies at random intervals, and will probably catch on fire again if I keep it long enough. Oh, well. I hardly ever drive the thing anymore, anyway (unless I have an extra few hours to get it towed).

Farrar

stevedmc

10-01-2011, 08:27 PM

There's just no point. The situation can't be improved, so I am just going to accept what I have -- a thirty-year-old car that runs like crap, has no air conditioning, dies at random intervals, and will probably catch on fire again if I keep it long enough. Oh, well. I hardly ever drive the thing anymore, anyway (unless I have an extra few hours to get it towed).

Since you no longer seem to need it, would you be interested in selling your crankshaft pulley?

Bitsyncmaster

10-01-2011, 08:32 PM

Just a wild guess. I would try another ignition coil.

stevedmc

10-01-2011, 08:43 PM

Just a wild guess. I would try another ignition coil.

Next time I'm around that his car I'm going to offer to swap parts until things start running fine.

Ron

10-01-2011, 08:50 PM

Since you no longer seem to need it, would you be interested in selling your crankshaft pulley?
You gonna take it off?

stevedmc

10-01-2011, 08:51 PM

You gonna take it off?

It can't be any more difficult to remove than mine.

sean

10-01-2011, 08:58 PM

You gonna take it off?

Ha! Farrar's got enough problems.

stevedmc

10-01-2011, 09:00 PM

Ha! Farrar's got enough problems.

If he gives me his crank shaft pulley he would never have to worry about driving his Delorean again.

sean

10-01-2011, 09:01 PM

If he gives me his crank shaft pulley he would never have to worry about driving his Delorean again.

This assumes you can get it off.

stevedmc

10-01-2011, 09:03 PM

This assumes you can get it off.

If I can't get his nut off I'll screw up the pulley so bad that he still won't have to worry about driving anymore. Its a win/win situation for him either way.

Ron

10-01-2011, 09:19 PM

If I can't get his nut off I'll screw up the pulley so bad that he still won't have to worry about driving anymore. Its a win/win situation for him either way.Now that's a win-frustrated and a useless D...

Farrar

10-01-2011, 09:44 PM

Since you no longer seem to need it, would you be interested in selling your crankshaft pulley?

I didn't say I was going to let the car rot; I said I was going to not drive it unless I have to. The next time I have to drive the car is tomorrow.

The weird thing is it sounds like a vacuum leak, and yet there are elements of my problem which don't seem -- to me, anyway -- to behave like a vacuum leak. For example, the last time I had a vacuum leak the engine wouldn't idle below 750-800 RPM; it would simply die. And yet I can back off the curb idle screw until it's not even touching the throttle and the engine will run, at 500 RPM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqLv2KBX0_s

(Here's the whole video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkXselPHVOw) for the morbidly curious.)

For testing purposes, I also did this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PewH2OKY2TQ

As I mentioned before, I've got brand new O-rings under the intake manifold -- and the intake manifold bolts have been torqued so much that they're beginning to round off at the top. (Don't worry; I have extra intake manifold bolts.) I pulled a vacuum on every line and they all held 25 inches of mercury. I just don't see how it could be a vacuum leak. Nor do I see any problems with ignition -- I get a steady pulse on each spark plug wire when I check with a timing light.

So it runs and does not die, does not have air conditioning (or a blower motor which will run above speed 1), and leaks oil from the top of the timing cover down into the engine valley and down the back of the engine. I will have to live with that for now, driving it only when I need to.

Farrar

Ron

10-01-2011, 10:54 PM

I just don't see how it could be a vacuum leak. Nor do I see any problems with ignition -- I get a steady pulse on each spark plug wire when I check with a timing light.It sure sounds a lot like a vacuum leak (or carb) and ignition to me. There is a miss so bad I can here it from here...Forget the timing light, it only tells you that the spark is getting to ground (a shorted wire, on the plug end, or bad plug...or even missing piston will not show). Try pulling your plug wires one at a time while it is running and listen for a change in the engine (no change is a bad cylinder...check its intake o-ring well. you may have to idle it up some depending on how warm it was/is).
Also, sloooooowly close the choke or do it with your hand at hot idle. If the RPMs raise you have a vacuum leak (or bad carb/adjustment).

-have at it!!!!

Farrar

10-02-2011, 12:07 AM

It sure sounds a lot like a vacuum leak (or carb) and ignition to me.

Me, too. And although I have done everything I know to eliminate the possibility of a vacuum leak, I have been wrong before.

There is a miss so bad I can here it from here...

That was partly why I made the video(s). I have also been communicating with Bill; he it was who suggested running the engine with no idle air mixture and throttle plates only. As you noticed, the idle got worse. And at that point it sounds even more like a vacuum leak.

Try pulling your plug wires one at a time while it is running and listen for a change in the engine

Isn't that dangerous? I have a 45,000-volt ignition coil. I don't want to electrocute myself tomorrow morning.

Also, sloooooowly close the choke or do it with your hand at hot idle. If the RPMs raise you have a vacuum leak (or bad carb/adjustment).

I thought if you closed the choke at idle the engine would die because it can't breathe. Do I have this backwards?

Speaking of vacuum, I have used a vacuum gauge with the engine running and the level of vacuum looked good and steady to me. But that was when the engine was idling better, so I will connect the gauge and get some readings again tomorrow morning. In order to read full manifold vacuum I generally connect the gauge in line with the brake booster.

Once upon a time, I used to use the vacuum gauge to adjust the carburetor; I would simply idle the engine and adjust the air mixture screws until the vacuum reading was highest. Boy, those were the days.

Farrar

TTait

10-02-2011, 12:17 AM

Me, too. And although I have done everything I know to eliminate the possibility of a vacuum leak.

You sprayed all around with WD40? sorry, just tuning in.

Farrar

10-02-2011, 12:30 AM

You sprayed all around with WD40? sorry, just tuning in.

Carburetor cleaner. I don't use WD40 for anything, so I never have it on hand.

In the morning, I will remove the intake manifold, check the O-rings, then replace the intake manifold and do the test again. I am out of carb cleaner but I have brake cleaner. (I thought about using water, but everyone recommends I use something more flammable. I will have the fire extinguisher on standby and videotape the test. Perhaps Jammer96 will be able to spot a YouTube video of a DeLorean catching fire.)

Edit: I have the urge to buy an AutoMeter vacuum gauge and install it in the engine compartment. Anyone know if they're meant to withstand heat like that, or if they'r meant to be mounted inside the car?

Farrar

Ron

10-02-2011, 02:03 AM

Isn't that dangerous? I have a 45,000-volt ignition coil. I don't want to electrocute myself tomorrow morning. If you pull the wire from the plug end, just don't yank it out of the cavity and the spark will jump to the block. If you pull it from the cap end, you will be holding a dead wire, assuming it and another one is not old, has a bad spots, etc that will allow the spark to cross over, in which case you will be alerted to the problem instantly ;-) -- Just don't grab it right near the end. There are several tongs and such you can get cheap, if you are that worried about it. (BTW, it's not high voltage that gives you a heart attack, it is LOW amps (< 1A !!!) through the heart ...it's not good for bone marrow in your fingers though ;-)

I thought if you closed the choke at idle the engine would die because it can't breathe. Do I have this backwards?No you're right idle or not, unless you have a HUGE leak. But I said "sloooooowly". The idea is that an air leak will make it run lean. As you slowly close the choke there must be a place between lean and choked out that the air is right. When you approach it, the sound of the engine will let you know. Ideally you should do this before you change anything, particularly air or fuel screws. And it may not work well depending on where air is getting in.
(If it is small and only affecting one cylinder/runner, you probably won't catch it -- but pulling its plug should -- a fair leak, like the rear of the carb gasket, internal crack, etc. can affect all cylinders and will act like the choke is opened too far (on a cool-warm engine) and hard to miss. It's just a tool.

Once upon a time, I used to use the vacuum gauge to adjust the carburetor; I would simply idle the engine and adjust the air mixture screws until the vacuum reading was highest. Boy, those were the days.
yep...it has better ears than you or I.

"were"? Why did you quit?... Google "Autolite 2100 vacuum gauge"

Farrar

10-03-2011, 03:32 AM

For really weird ways of using a vacuum gauge, how about the way my grandfather used to time the spark on his Willys? Short out every other plug, set idle to 1500 RPM, then adjust distributor to the highest vacuum reading. I'll bet the gang at Jiffy Lube don't know that trick.

Anyway...

I drove Spark to and from a video shoot tonight. Despite the fact that the engine idles like crap, I was able to start, stop, and drive the vehicle successfully. Unfortunately, something has happened to the courtesy light circuit: the car "thinks" that my door is open all the time now. I had to pull the fuse to turn the lights off so that I could drive home safely. After that, I noticed that the dome light fixture has broken, so I removed it.

A thought occurred to me as I was driving home tonight: most of the problems with our cars are electrical, right? So what if something has happened which prevents the spark from jumping a .044" gap? I will re-gap the spark plugs to something smaller -- say .035" -- and see if it improves the running of the engine.

Also, tonight was the first time when I drove the car at night after I converted the headlights to H4 bulbs. Even though the housings don't look stock, I REALLY like the H4 bulbs and plan to keep them.

Farrar

Farrar

10-04-2011, 10:58 AM

This is just ridiculous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSEMQtmFx7M

Farrar

sean

10-04-2011, 11:04 AM

This is just ridiculous...

Hey I like it, Doc Mangione is better than BTTF part 4 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1836-Back-To-The-Future-Part-4......sort-of)

Farrar

10-04-2011, 11:40 AM

Hey I like it, Doc Mangione is better than BTTF part 4 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1836-Back-To-The-Future-Part-4......sort-of)

Oh, dear... Well, the video we made Sunday had a few advantages, including being made in 2011 and a tripod.

Farrar

stevedmc

10-04-2011, 11:51 AM

Oh, dear... Well, the video we made Sunday had a few advantages, including being made in 2011 and a tripod.

Farrar

I love how the delorean made the tardis sound. Where in the world did you film the 1966 part? It looks like Charlestown, NC.

Farrar

10-04-2011, 11:59 AM

I love how the delorean made the tardis sound. Where in the world did you film the 1966 part? It looks like Charlestown, NC.

Thanks. Originally folks were trying to figure out how to do the "88 MPH" effect on a budget, and I thought it would be funnier if, instead, the car disappeared like the TARDIS from "Doctor Who." (The light on the dashboard is meant to look like the light at the top of the TARDIS, but they couldn't make it blink.)

I am going to go all Google on you and say "Did you mean Charleston, SC?" ;-) However, no -- that was actually filmed right behind my apartment building! The ringleader of the group got a still photo of the block of flats where Ozzy grew up from Google Maps and edited out the more modern stuff from the buildings. Then he brought a giant blue tarp to my apartment. There is a fence dividing the apartment complex's property from the Pepsi plant on the other side of the block. He hung the giant blue tarp on the fence, and I drove the car alongside the fence until I was in front of the blue tarp, then parked the car, opened up the door, and walked toward the blue tarp. Neat effect!

Farrar

stevedmc

10-04-2011, 12:27 PM

I am going to go all Google on you and say "Did you mean Charleston, SC?" ;-) r

Oops. I mean't Charleston, SC. I was being lazy and didn't look it up. Anyway, I've been to Charleston and its an amazing and beautiful city. There are so many homes that look just like what you used in the video.

Great job with the bluescreen. It really does look like you are in front of those homes.

This is one of the many reasons that I believe modern special effects such as this should be illegal. Its hard to tell what is real anymore. I honestly thought this was a scene you filmed in Charleston.

Farrar

10-04-2011, 01:17 PM

Great job with the bluescreen. It really does look like you are in front of those homes.

Thanks, I will let them know! You have to time filming right in order for it to look good... this was actually a shot we didn't think we were going to get, but we picked it up yesterday on the spur of the moment: I had an eye doctor appointment and got home early to see that the sun was in the right spot to match the photo and there was a huge stretch of the parking lot with no one in it, so I called up my friend at work and we put the whole thing together.

And the joy of it is since it was shot against a blue screen we can use that in future video productions if it is necessary for Chronotis to ever travel anywhere else ... or at least anywhere else where he drives on the left-hand side of the road. :lol:

Farrar

Farrar

10-06-2011, 11:50 AM

Just thought of another reason the engine could be running like crap: it's rare, but I suppose after 30 years the ballast resistor could be packing up. I will check it with my multimeter. Failing that I will re-gap the spark plugs smaller and see if that improves/changes anything.

Note: I have been running an MSD "Blaster 2" ignition coil since 2008. Although MSD suggests using their own .8-Ohm resistor, I did not buy one as I did not know of this at the time, so I am using the stock ballast resistor "wired backward" like Bill R. uses it (with a fuse, post-fire, for safety). The MSD resistor is $10 at AutoZone but is a "special order item," which means they do not have it in stock.

Farrar

Ron

10-06-2011, 12:42 PM

..., so I am using the stock ballast resistor "wired backward" like Bill R. uses it (with a fuse, post-fire, for safety).arrar

May I ask why you did it like Bill in the first place?

Farrar

10-06-2011, 12:43 PM

May I ask why you did it like Bill in the first place?

I had already bought the new ignition coil from John Hervey.

Farrar

Ron

10-06-2011, 12:53 PM

Ah, thanks.
I was wondering why he would want to up the voltage with a hot coil then choke it with a resistor (on a point-less system).

FWIW: The Blaster 2 sheet says a resistor is not required (2nd column, just before "Removal" instructions).....

Dangermouse

10-06-2011, 12:57 PM

This is just ridiculous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSEMQtmFx7M

Farrar

that was awesome Farrar.

Loved ozzy playing with Iommi's SG

The ringleader of the group got a still photo of the block of flats where Ozzy grew up from Google Maps and edited out the more modern stuff from the buildings.
Farrar

Right hand door is a tad narrow ;)

Farrar

10-06-2011, 12:59 PM

I was wondering why he would want to up the voltage with a hot coil then choke it with a resistor (on a point-less system).

I thought our ignition was essentially points-based, anyway -- hence the tiny gap recommended by Volvo et al. No?

Farrar

Farrar

10-06-2011, 01:05 PM

Right hand door is a tad narrow ;)

That was the first thing I noticed. In fact, there are quite a few things wrong with the video. However, the finished product should look slightly better, and also be funnier. :)

Someone pointed out to me that I should have writ "OZZY" on my left hand's fingers as he evidently did that when he was a teenager. So add that to the list. :lol:

Farrar

Ron

10-06-2011, 01:15 PM

I thought our ignition was essentially points-based, anyway -- hence the tiny gap recommended by Volvo et al. No?

FarrarNow that is a loaded question if I ever saw one LOL!!!

Seriously, points or electronic, it's just a switch, a trigger for when to fire the coil, nothing else. The gap recommended by the manufacturer(s) is determined after considerable testing of the spark's curve and resulting burn for a given engine.
(This has been pointed out several times, by several people, in several threads to no avail -- no offense or implication directed toward you whatsoever! -- A stinking can of worms that needs to stay shut at this point IMO ;-)
If it was points based it would have points, no?

stevedmc

10-06-2011, 01:24 PM

Now that is a loaded question if I ever saw one LOL!!!

Seriously, points or electronic, it's just a switch, a trigger for when to fire the coil, nothing else. The gap recommended by the manufacturer(s) is determined after considerable testing of the spark's curve and resulting burn for a given engine.
(This has been pointed out several times, by several people, in several threads to no avail -- no offense or implication directed toward you whatsoever! -- A stinking can of worms that needs to stay shut at this point IMO ;-)
If it was points based it would have points, no?

Didn't you already say this on Bill's HEI thread? Sean closed it for a reason.

Farrar

10-06-2011, 01:26 PM

If it was points based it would have points, no?

I don't know what that looks like. Although the book I have at home on automotive tune-up and maintenance mentions "points open" and "points closed" for certain tests, it does not contain illustrations. Ignition is the one system on the car I have not yet studied in detail, and I am a slow learner.

Farrar

Ron

10-06-2011, 01:42 PM

It's all just two ways of doing the same thing. Just look at the pictures in the link below ;-)
(If you care to read it, notice the purpose of the capacitor (condenser) is for more than radio noise suppression, another myth floating around...)

http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/ignition.htm

A second thought on the resistor- When replacing a point based system with a "breaker-less/electronic" upgrade, every one I have seen has a full 12V feeding it.

Farrar

10-06-2011, 01:57 PM

Ron,

So we are running points...? I seem to recall seeing something of that type underneath the ignition distributor's dust shield. I dunno, I will look again. In the meantime, I will take some notes from that article you pointed me to. Thanks!

BTW, if memory serves Bill's justification for wiring the thing the way he did is that by bridging that one side of the stock ballast resistor, he gets .25 Ohms of resistance and 12.5v into the coil. I don't know how he did that math, but he presumably measured the 12.5v with his voltmeter. I put a glass fuse on the other side of the resistor just to be safe; I believe Bill has a fusible link in the same place.

Farrar

Ron

10-06-2011, 02:33 PM

Ron,

So we are running points...? I seem to recall seeing something of that type underneath the ignition distributor's dust shield. No points, no condenser, no need for the resistor according to the sheet as I read it and, IMHO, no need to second guess the engineers therefore no reason to replace a stock coil (Now you happy that you drug it out of me LMAO)

BTW, if memory serves Bill's justification for wiring the thing the way he did is that by bridging that one side of the stock ballast resistor, he gets .25 Ohms of resistance and 12.5v into the coil. I don't know how he did that math, but he presumably measured the 12.5v with his voltmeter. I put a glass fuse on the other side of the resistor just to be safe; I believe Bill has a fusible link in the same place.

Farrar
No need to figure the resistance when it says not to use it...Now, Bill may have had another reason --that all depends on what else he, or someone else did, although I can't think of why, unless it is the cap and rotor not being able to handle it. FWIW would ask him. Since he chooses to hide in the shadows I can only respond with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzbrlSHf5-M

Farrar

10-06-2011, 02:39 PM

Back in 2008, I was informed that if I wanted to run a wider plug gap I would need to upgrade the ignition coil. I did so. There may have been no need to replace the stock coil -- for all I know I could have simply removed the ignition bypass relay and ballast resistor and left the stock coil in place -- but I did so anyway. Sparky's blue coil is gone -- besides, it would be thirty years old by now. I might as well try to do the best with what I've got.

Who knows, ignition could be a wild goose. Sparky's rough running may actually be caused by a vacuum leak. Perhaps I will buy a cheap fog machine from Party City, take the carburetor off the manifold and stick a tube between the fog machine and the intake manifold, then see if any fog comes out anywhere. (I proposed this "poor man's smoke machine diagnostic" method last year on the old DMCTalk since I found out that "fog juice" is merely propylene glycol and therefore not harmful to our engines; since then, evidently David Teitelbaum has had success tracking down vacuum leaks using this method.) I didn't think I had any vacuum leaks, but I've been wrong before.

Farrar

Ron

10-06-2011, 03:12 PM

If you want a wider gap then you may very well need to get a hotter coil. The thing, to me, would be why would you want a bigger gap. Racers do/did it because they changed their stock design-configuration, as did manufacturers (in fact they are easing the other way since they are accomplishing near complete burn with new designs). Changes to your D's configuration, may have required it too, or, you may just simply want to, of coarse.

I like the fog machine!!! Similarly, I have pulled a carb, to make it easier to seal things up, and blew a controlled amount of pressure into the engine to chase down an air leak ($%#&*%! internally cracked intake runner).
As I said before, I would chase down the missing cylinder(s) -- this makes it easier to pinpoint the problem. I always try to look for the obvious, then pair up easiest with most reveling test(s).
From the sound, I'm doubting vacuum leaks, too...there is definitely more than that anyway.

Farrar

10-07-2011, 10:48 AM

Bill and I e-mail frequently and he still thinks it's a vacuum leak. The fact that it doesn't seem to miss at higher RPM would seem to bear that out, but I have torqued down the intake manifold more than usual, with brand new O-rings underneath it, and pulled a vacuum on all the lines to confirm no leaks.

Bill still says I should spray brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner all over the intake manifold mating surfaces and see what happens. That stuff smells awful and makes my eyes burn. Besides, since there is hot engine oil leaking into my engine valley whenever I run the thing, and I have already had a fire in the engine compartment on this car, I hesitate to spray oodles of highly-flammable liquid down there. What if I got some warm tap-water in a spray bottle and used that instead? Would that be sufficient for a vacuum leak check?

Farrar

stevedmc

10-07-2011, 11:17 AM

What if I got some warm tap-water in a spray bottle and used that instead? Would that be sufficient for a vacuum leak check?

The reason you want to spray something flamable is to see if the engine revs up. The idea is that any leaks will pull carb cleaner into the engine. If carb cleaner gets pulled into the engine it will ignite and your engine will rev up.

Farrar

10-07-2011, 11:40 AM

Maybe I need some propane...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CPqbaSgcok

... or a cheap cigar! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMok2y05jNE

Farrar

Ron

10-07-2011, 02:02 PM

Bill still says I should spray brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner all over the intake manifold mating surfaces and see what happens. ...
What if I got some warm tap-water in a spray bottle and used that instead? Would that be sufficient for a vacuum leak check?With exhaust, distributors and sparks in general, water can be a lot safer. I think 'spray spirts' all around... sounds safer LOL. I find a small water stream works better than a spray bottle. Instead of listening for the engine to rev etc, you listen for it to settle and smooth out and/or a slurping sound, or, a change in general. -- Be careful around oil puddles, the water will cause them to pop like bacon grease. Of coarse you don't want the engine to be "HOT".
Air and soapy water is another option...sizs and location matters ...but you can only suspect....