Blueprints on ebay?

[PJ Grady Inc.]

"He's one of the son's from the law firm that dealt with the creditors against JZD/DMC. I've actually been to their offices in Detroit before to interview the lawyer who dealt with this over 20 years. They sell these original items as a way to raise more money for the people who were owed money from DMC. I've bought a lot of stuff from them, and it's all legit. Some stuff they have is multiples (original copies, etc). So your best bet is to buy original items with original sketches, etc. They have file cabinets full of stuff, pretty incredible."

Actually if I'm not mistaken this lawyer put his sons through college with the money raised from selling these records. If he was actually giving refunds to people who lost money on their investment in DMC I'd expect he would have given us a call over the years since we lost money to the bankruptcy court. They went after us for ordering parts to offset warranty claims that the company owed us. Their debt didn't count...only the fact that we ordered parts against their debt. Please don't make these guys out to be do gooders! They are just unscrupulous lawyers who diverted money owed to DMCL's creditors into their own pockets and continue to do so 35 years later.....incredible!
Rob

[SamHill]

Rob, can you unpack that a little bit? "Their" debt didn't matter. Whose debt? A few different issues here 1) concerning the warranty and 2) I am also confused about how they diverted money. Genuine question without agenda. Of course the lawyers are going to get paid first and there won't be anything left after that; who would expect anything less, right.

The question about the records is very interesting since Barrie and others have groused about it over the years. And groused for good reason because you and they are owed money and believe the records were "looted" from New York. I don't doubt that no money has flowed to any creditors no matter how high or low on the food chain.

However, whether the records were "looted" I've always thought could be due for some examination. An argument could be made that the law requires that records be kept by the trustee for 7 years, especially since there may be future claims. After that, it gets tricky, because I would think that *personnel* records are supposed to be destroyed in order to protect personal information of the business owner and former employees. Until then, the cost of the storage of the documents is yet another cost to billed.

Devil's advocate: After the proper time period had passed, they could have all been carted out to the curb and unceremoniously buried like so many poo-filled Huggies. They certainly have value now. Did they have value in 1983? Or in 1990? The value of a signed check from JZD in 1989 while he was still living was maybe worthy enough as a keepsake for a hard core car nut, but the value of a memo from Haddad to Lander, etc? That would have been so much birdcage lining. Still kinda is.

I'm interested because I'm ignorant. I have never heard of business records being considered assets, but I could certainly be wrong. I suppose an ethical argument could be formed that since they are valuable now, dmcseller could do the "right thing" and pay off priority creditors, but I am willing to bet those creditors would still be -- you guessed it -- lawyers who had outstanding claims, leaving everyone else bupkis.

Interesting issue.

[David T]

The idea of actual ownership of the records raises a lot of questions. Under just what circumstances DOES the lawyer claim ownership? Just because he has them in his possession? None of this stuff was necessary for JZD's legal defense. Trouble is there is probably no one who can make a successful legal claim against him for those records or the money from their sale. I would guess that most of the creditors from the bankruptcy are long gone now. In any case it would cost a lot of money to pursue any claim against him. The only people that come out well in a bankruptcy are the lawyers.

[DMCVegas]

These records were not from JZD's legal defense for the criminal charges stemming from his arrest. As stated in the defense, as well as subsequent verdict, DMC had nothing to do with the arrest nor trial.

These records were from DMC's bankruptcy proceedings which took place in Michigan. The records held by dmcseller are from DeLorean Motor Company's various offices around the country, including the QACs. It was/is the most comprehensive, and I would say only unbiased record out there of DMC's operations. That is why it's preservation is so vital, and why the destruction of the collection by being parted out is opposed by so many.

[David T]

These records were not from JZD's legal defense for the criminal charges stemming from his arrest. As stated in the defense, as well as subsequent verdict, DMC had nothing to do with the arrest nor trial.

These records were from DMC's bankruptcy proceedings which took place in Michigan. The records held by dmcseller are from DeLorean Motor Company's various offices around the country, including the QACs. It was/is the most comprehensive, and I would say only unbiased record out there of DMC's operations. That is why it's preservation is so vital, and why the destruction of the collection by being parted out is opposed by so many.

Then the question still stands. Unless the lawyer was involved with the bankruptcy what is is claim to ownership of the documents and how can he justify profiting personally from their sale? I was under the impression that this lawyer represented JZD in his personal legal case, not the DMC bankruptcy. If this lawyer was the trustee for the bankruptcy any proceeds from the sale of the documents should be shared among the creditors. Of course he would be entitled to his legal fees but the creditors should see something from it too! I guess he is counting on no one coming forward and asking for any of it.

[DMCVegas]

Then the question still stands. Unless the lawyer was involved with the bankruptcy what is is claim to ownership of the documents and how can he justify profiting personally from their sale? I was under the impression that this lawyer represented JZD in his personal legal case, not the DMC bankruptcy. If this lawyer was the trustee for the bankruptcy any proceeds from the sale of the documents should be shared among the creditors. Of course he would be entitled to his legal fees but the creditors should see something from it too! I guess he is counting on no one coming forward and asking for any of it.

Oh, I totally agree. Now seeing as how this was a bankruptcy, I would have thought that these records would have remained with the Trustee instead of the debtor's lawyer. Allard was the trustee, and I think it is actually his son selling this stuff. Tamir would be able to confirm that for sure since he's been to the archives. http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?50...ll=1#post71239

For JZD's criminal defense, there was one law firm that he first retained (Minsky I think?), and it was one of their staff members who leaked the arrest video to Larry Flynt. Later on though is when JZD retained Howard Weizman and Donald Re.

All I can say is that the bankruptcy trial was, to be blunt, a complete and utter mess. I'm still scratching my head as to how in the world, with millions of dollars owed to creditors from Renault to Legend Industries, JZD still got to keep LMC, his 5th Avenue apartment in NYC, and Bendminster. But the only thing worse was perhaps DMC's operations itself. http://www.leagle.com/decision/19841...N%20MOTOR%20CO.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob, can you unpack that a little bit? "Their" debt didn't matter. Whose debt? A few different issues here 1) concerning the warranty and 2) I am also confused about how they diverted money. Genuine question without agenda. Of course the lawyers are going to get paid first and there won't be anything left after that; who would expect anything less, right.

The question about the records is very interesting since Barrie and others have groused about it over the years. And groused for good reason because you and they are owed money and believe the records were "looted" from New York. I don't doubt that no money has flowed to any creditors no matter how high or low on the food chain.

However, whether the records were "looted" I've always thought could be due for some examination. An argument could be made that the law requires that records be kept by the trustee for 7 years, especially since there may be future claims. After that, it gets tricky, because I would think that *personnel* records are supposed to be destroyed in order to protect personal information of the business owner and former employees. Until then, the cost of the storage of the documents is yet another cost to billed.

Devil's advocate: After the proper time period had passed, they could have all been carted out to the curb and unceremoniously buried like so many poo-filled Huggies. They certainly have value now. Did they have value in 1983? Or in 1990? The value of a signed check from JZD in 1989 while he was still living was maybe worthy enough as a keepsake for a hard core car nut, but the value of a memo from Haddad to Lander, etc? That would have been so much birdcage lining. Still kinda is.

I'm interested because I'm ignorant. I have never heard of business records being considered assets, but I could certainly be wrong. I suppose an ethical argument could be formed that since they are valuable now, dmcseller could do the "right thing" and pay off priority creditors, but I am willing to bet those creditors would still be -- you guessed it -- lawyers who had outstanding claims, leaving everyone else bupkis.

Interesting issue.

As an original DMC dealer we performed warranty repairs for which we we never reimbursed by DMCL to the tune of about 15K. Because we knew the company was in trouble and would not likely be in business much longer we ordered, in the final months, about the equivalent amount of replacement parts to cover those expenses. When the Detroit bankruptcy court brought the case to trial they basically discharged all debts incurred by DMCL and simultaneously brought to trial all debts owed to DMCL. I know that is SOP in these cases. We had to hire a Detroit based attorney at the rate of $500- per hour (In 1983 dollars!) to represent us. By the time the case went to court the attorney for the bankruptcy proceedings David J. Allard (IIRC the exact name. I could be wrong on the middle initial) allowed that we had a legitimate defense but that the court had to get something so we settled at 10 cents on the dollar ($1500-)which sounded good on paper. The rub was that combined with our lawyer's bill we spent about 13K to get our day in court. We came out losing 2K less than not fighting the case so it was almost a wash. What bothered me most was seeing the son(s?) of the prosecuting attorney benefit from the sale of all these paper records which the court really had no use for in the first place. These records turned into highly sought after collectible assets over time. For instance I was told the initial stock certificate sold for 15K for that single piece of paper! So when you extrapolate over many thousands of records you can see the potential income from this was sizable to say the least. Apparently it was enough to put one or more of his sons through law school with much more left to sell. This income should have gone to actual creditors and/or some effort could have been extended to try and keep the more important documents together for historical purposes. Neither of those things happened but somebody made a windfall profit of likely hundreds of thousands of dollars with no end in sight. A judicial system that allows this to happen is broken and needs fixing.
Rob

[SamHill]

and why the destruction of the collection by being parted out ...

Scattered, yes. Destroyed, no. He could outright destroy them if he wanted to.

The only thing I can think of being even slightly analogous is when the DMA visited David Cammack in Alexandria to see his Tucker collection. Cammack was a dedicated collector: he knew a person decades ago who had all the old Tucker records and drawings. The story he told is that he approached the man and offered him a large sum of money. The man flatly refused for a reason I don't remember. Could have been he was a hoarder, and hoarders can't bear to part with anything. At any rate, when he died, the bulk of his stuff was thrown out. Cammack got there in time to rescue a great many records from the curb right before they went to the dump.

And so it could have been with these records, a long time ago, except that here, a hope for future profit kept them from being destroyed.

[SamHill]

As an original DMC dealer we performed warranty repairs for which we we never reimbursed by DMCL to the tune of about 15K. Because we knew the company was in trouble and would not likely be in business much longer we ordered, in the final months, about the equivalent amount of replacement parts to cover those expenses. When the Detroit bankruptcy court brought the case to trial they basically discharged all debts incurred by DMCL and simultaneously brought to trial all debts owed to DMCL. I know that is SOP in these cases. We had to hire a Detroit based attorney at the rate of $500- per hour (In 1983 dollars!) to represent us. By the time the case went to court the attorney for the bankruptcy proceedings David J. Allard (IIRC the exact name. I could be wrong on the middle initial) allowed that we had a legitimate defense but that the court had to get something so we settled at 10 cents on the dollar ($1500-)which sounded good on paper. The rub was that combined with our lawyer's bill we spent about 13K to get our day in court. We came out losing 2K less than not fighting the case so it was almost a wash. What bothered me most was seeing the son(s?) of the prosecuting attorney benefit from the sale of all these paper records which the court really had no use for in the first place. These records turned into highly sought after collectible assets over time. For instance I was told the initial stock certificate sold for 15K for that single piece of paper! So when you extrapolate over many thousands of records you can see the potential income from this was sizable to say the least. Apparently it was enough to put one or more of his sons through law school with much more left to sell. This income should have gone to actual creditors and/or some effort could have been extended to try and keep the more important documents together for historical purposes. Neither of those things happened but somebody made a windfall profit of likely hundreds of thousands of dollars with no end in sight. A judicial system that allows this to happen is broken and needs fixing.
Rob

Thanks for the explanation, Rob. A bankruptcy is a feeding frenzy.

[David T]

Thanks for the explanation, Rob. A bankruptcy is a feeding frenzy.

Having been involved with several bankruptcies I can tell you from the creditor's prospective it is a no win situation. There is "claw back". Any deal done 180 days prior to the date of filing the court can claw back any money paid out. The court can decide what to pay and how much. The attorneys who deal in this area of law charge their clients a LOT of money knowing full well their clients will never get enough back to justify their legal expenses let alone recoup any losses. About a creditor's only recourse is through the tax loss incurred. Trump found a way to lose almost a BILLION dollars and save it on taxes through bankruptcy! It is a travesty of justice but that is our legal system today. Somehow, someway that lawyer peddling all of these documents should be held to account for all of the money he profited from them over the years at the expense of the legitimate creditors. Legend Industries lost his business because of DMC and he should see something too. And any other creditors that may still be around. maybe if they all got together they could afford to do something if there is any money left (it hasn't all been spent by the attorney on his son's college).