Engine won't reach 2000 RPMs under load

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes that looks like water in the gas. Just like you would see when you preflight an airplane, you drain gas from the wing tanks into a container and look for clear liquid at the bottom.

You may have got some bad gas. You don't see water much anymore with the 10% alcohol in the gas. We use to use a can of "dry gas" in the old days.

[jangell]

You may have got some bad gas. You don't see water much anymore with the 10% alcohol in the gas. We use to use a can of "dry gas" in the old days.

I don't suppose simply draining the tank (say, by running the fuel pump until the lines are empty; there's maybe three or four gallons of gas in the tank now) and refilling it will be enough to clear it, will it? I would like to avoid cleaning the tank in the parking lot if at all possible.

Thanks

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

I don't suppose simply draining the tank (say, by running the fuel pump until the lines are empty; there's maybe three or four gallons of gas in the tank now) and refilling it will be enough to clear it, will it? I would like to avoid cleaning the tank in the parking lot if at all possible.

Thanks

-- Joe

The water would be sitting in the bottom of the tank. If its not much water it should get absorbed with gasohol.

[jangell]

The water would be sitting in the bottom of the tank. If its not much water it should get absorbed with gasohol.

Ok, I think I'll just put in new gas then, once I've drained the tank. I was thinking of throwing some dry gas in there anyway, but googling suggested that's moot since normal gas is 15% ethanol anyway.

Some day I have to replace my fuel sender (Tankzilla; it's being a little unreliable recently on the full end and takes a long time to get to "full", like its sticking, but it works well enough), at which point I'll probably do DMCH's new pump/sender combo and clean the tank out then.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok, I think I'll just put in new gas then, once I've drained the tank. I was thinking of throwing some dry gas in there anyway, but googling suggested that's moot since normal gas is 15% ethanol anyway.

Some day I have to replace my fuel sender (Tankzilla; it's being a little unreliable recently on the full end and takes a long time to get to "full", like its sticking, but it works well enough), at which point I'll probably do DMCH's new pump/sender combo and clean the tank out then.

Thanks!

-- Joe

FYI:
It's 10% ethanol. They know 15% will cause more problems than the 10% is causing now. Funny when I was in South Carolina two weeks ago I saw gas stations advertizing no ethanol gas. You can't get that here in souther Maryland.

[David T]

FYI:
It's 10% ethanol. They know 15% will cause more problems than the 10% is causing now. Funny when I was in South Carolina two weeks ago I saw gas stations advertizing no ethanol gas. You can't get that here in souther Maryland.

If you have water in the gas it is in the fuel tank. The only way to get rid of it is to siphon out everything in the tank and then wipe the tank out. It would make sense you are having trouble with the tank level sender because the water rusted the contact wires in the sender. You can remove it and clean the wires up with some fine sandpaper. Do NOT use "Dry Gas", you already have too much alcohol in the fuel. Don't use the fuel pump to drain the tank, running the dirt and water through it is not a good idea.
David Teitelbaum

[jangell]

If you have water in the gas it is in the fuel tank. The only way to get rid of it is to siphon out everything in the tank and then wipe the tank out. It would make sense you are having trouble with the tank level sender because the water rusted the contact wires in the sender. You can remove it and clean the wires up with some fine sandpaper. Do NOT use "Dry Gas", you already have too much alcohol in the fuel. Don't use the fuel pump to drain the tank, running the dirt and water through it is not a good idea.
David Teitelbaum

Right... This is what I was hoping to avoid, at least in the parking lot. I had hoped I could throw a few more gallons of gas in there to dilute the water sufficiently to limp it to the garage, at which point I'd be free to do whatever repairs I need to do. I'd be doing that with newly-cleaned injectors, though, which would probably not be good for them.

At least it sounds like the fuel sender is salvageable.

-- Joe

[David T]

Right... This is what I was hoping to avoid, at least in the parking lot. I had hoped I could throw a few more gallons of gas in there to dilute the water sufficiently to limp it to the garage, at which point I'd be free to do whatever repairs I need to do. I'd be doing that with newly-cleaned injectors, though, which would probably not be good for them.

At least it sounds like the fuel sender is salvageable.

-- Joe

Doing the fuel tank is not that big a deal. You do it all from the top. Since it is the front of the car no one will even suspect you are working on the fuel tank unless they get close and smell fuel. If you are pumping water there is way too much to dilute. Get the tank empty, wipe it out, and inspect all of the parts. Replace any deteriorated or questionable parts. You will not have a reliable fuel system till you have a clean tank with good parts in it. Any residue or coating in the tank can be cleaned up with Acetone. Once you are done in the tank replace the fuel filter.
David Teitelbaum

[jangell]

Doing the fuel tank is not that big a deal. You do it all from the top. Since it is the front of the car no one will even suspect you are working on the fuel tank unless they get close and smell fuel. If you are pumping water there is way too much to dilute. Get the tank empty, wipe it out, and inspect all of the parts. Replace any deteriorated or questionable parts. You will not have a reliable fuel system till you have a clean tank with good parts in it. Any residue or coating in the tank can be cleaned up with Acetone. Once you are done in the tank replace the fuel filter.

Hmmm... Ok, maybe ill give it a go later this week. I can use a hand pump to remove the last couple of gallons of gas. It looks easy enough to pull the pump out. After that it seems like I can get it to the garage to replace the fuel filter and any other parts I may need to replace in the tank itself.

Thanks for all the help.

-- Joe

[jangell]

I finally took car of the tank today. Dave T graciously cleaned my injectors for me; he said they were the worst he'd ever seen, and that one of them was completely bad, while the others were passable after cleaning. I got a new injector and boots from DMC MW, and a bunch of copper washers from McMaster-Carr.

After I put the injectors back in, I pulled the fuel pump and drained 3 gallons of gas with a simple siphon pump thing. and got the rest out with some rags. The tank was remarkably clean already; there wasn't really any gunk to speak of, although the surface was slightly slick to the touch (I figure that was from the gas). I do plan on doing a more thorough cleaning this weekend, just in case.

I'm much more concerned about the top of the fuel pump outside the tank. The cover seemed to be doing nothing -- it was filled with water, and the fittings are all rusted. I'm not sure if this is how water was getting in, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. At this point I'm trying to decide if I should do a complete pump replacement with one from DMCH, or if I should just replace the boot and cover. It's not clear to me how I'd get those rusted bolts off the fuel pump, however, and the docs from the new pump seem to suggest that you cut the lines instead; is that really correct?

After I put 2.5 gallons of clean gas in the tank, it took me about 10 minutes to get the car started. This included trying to jump the RPM relay socket directly to run the pump, although I could hear it running for a couple seconds when I turned the key to "run". I got a cloud of white smoke when it finally did start, but that quickly cleared up and the car ran pretty well, and got smoother after I let it run a bit longer. I only drove it for about a mile (down the street and back), and it ran very well. I thought there was a little hesitation or misfiring once or twice, but I get the feeling it'll get better once I drive it for a longer distance and put more gas in it. Overall, it's MUCH better than before; revving from idle had no problem getting to high RPMs with no misfirings.

The only other problem i had was that I forgot to remove the torque wrench that was laying on the passenger windshield wiper; I thought the "pop" I heard while driving was from the exhaust, until I realized that it was the wrench's plastic case sliding off the car and hitting the ground.

I've attached some pictures of what I found.

Fuel Pump Cover and Rubber Seal
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Siphoning Gas. I had to tape one end of the hose to a prybar (the red handle in the picture) to get it to stay in the tank, and tape the other end to the gas can.
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The tank itself. Apologies for the quality of the photos; my iPhone's lens isn't quite as wide as it really needs to be to do this properly.
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I also pulled the fuel sender, which contrary to my previous assertion is not a Tankzilla but a DMCH unit. I was going to try to take it apart and clean it, but I couldn't actually figure out how to do that beyond removing the two screws on the bottom, so I decided to leave it alone. There's a small amount of corrosion on the button of the sender. The seal at the top is coming apart a little bit on the sender as well, which perhaps could also be the source of a water leak into the tank. Fixing the fuel sender is another reason I'm considering the new DMCH pump kit.
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So, here's today's questions:

- How do I safely dispose of three gallons of bad gas? It's currently sitting in a proper gas can under my deck, but I'd like to dispose of it properly. I live in a condo, so burning it, using it in gas-poewred tools (of which I have none), or anything like that aren't really an option. I disposed of the rags by letting them dry in the sun a bit while I was working, then putting them in a paint can and filling it with water per some instructions I found online.

- Do you actually cut the fuel lines on the top of the pump (as in, outside of the pump, before you remove it from the tank) when replacing it? I just want to make sure I don't screw up anything here, and it would save me the trouble of figuring out how to get that rusted hardware out.

Thanks!

-- Joe